Is Musk lying on maximum battery capacity?

[Nuclear Fusion]

The wheelbase dimensions suggest around 85 kWh battery is possible.

Is he saying only 75 kWh is possible as a Model S differentiation, in the same way Tesla will be limiting the power of the performance Model 3 so as to not go close to 2.3 seconds, even though it can be quicker?

 

[tsla007]

AT this point in time-no. 75kw max 3 yrs from now might be 90kw.

 

[Troy]

Yes, I too think 85 kWh is possible but they are not doing it because it would make the Model S look bad. Just by looking at these Model 3 range numbers that I calculated, you can see why they went with the 75 kWh battery:

Model 3 75D: 297 mi EPA rated range
Model 3 P75D: 281 mi EPA rated range

Model 3 85D: 330 mi EPA rated range
Model 3 P85D: 313 mi EPA rated range

Model S 100D: 335 mi EPA rated range
Model S P100D: 315 mi EPA rated range

The 0-60 time of the Model 3 P85D might be the same as the Model S P100D. If both cars had the same range and performance, fewer people would buy the Model S P100D instead of the cheaper Model 3 P85D. That's why they went with the 75 kWh.

Here are some details about this subject:

• The Model 3 will have a performance version. Elon confirmed Ludicrous mode here.
• 75 kWh for the Model 3 was confirmed by Elon here.
• The Model 3 75D is expected to have around 300 mi EPA rated range based on this screenshot.

By the way, some people might think that whatever Elon had said here, people would want more. If he had said maximum 80 kWh, people would say why not 90. If he had said maximum 85, people would say why not 95? You might think that I'm doing the same thing but that's not true. I predicted 75 kWh now and 85 within 2 years a few months before Elon tweeted about the 75 kWh. See my message here from Dec 2016. I have since adjusted my range calculations. I'm now expecting 297 mi EPA for Model 3 75D.

 

[zenmaster]

I predicted 75 kWh now and 85 within 2 years a few months before Elon tweeted about the 75 kWh. See my message here from Dec 2016. I have since adjusted my range calculations. I'm now expecting 297 mi EPA for Model 3 75D.

Makes sense as Tesla can play games like that to reduce sales cannibalization in the near term. But they certainly can't be feature poor at the Model 3 price point in the incipient competitive EV market. As they are agile with battery tech, they can easily afford to hold off for now and bump up the battery capacity when competition produces longer range EVs. Good plan.

 

[N5329K]

And so the base model Bolt will have longer range than the base Model 3?
Robin

 

[03DSG]

And so the base model Bolt will have longer range than the base Model 3?
Robin

I highly doubt it. That why they bumped the base to 60kwh from something less.

 

[sigmo32]

Are you comparing the wheelbase dimensions scaled from the Model S? Don't forget the placement of the motors is more inboard for the Model 3, which changes the layout and thus actual space for the pack itself.

 

[PJFW8]

The wheelbase dimensions suggest around 85 kWh battery is possible.

Is he saying only 75 kWh is possible as a Model S differentiation, in the same way Tesla will be limiting the power of the performance Model 3 so as to not go close to 2.3 seconds, even though it can be quicker?

Possibly, but factor in that the S and X battery pack has a small area of double layer. The 3 is single layer. The 3 also has the motors inside the wheelbase. S and X motors are outside of the wheelbase.

 

[Trips]

You can't really compare to the S/X as they use different batteries and will continue to. The old 18650 cell format was much shorter and skinnier than the Model 3 2170 cells. While Elon said these 2170 cells have the highest energy density they have only been put into a single known car at this point.

 

[McRat]

Don't confuse "not possible" with "impossible".

 

[powertoold]

If you guys think the base Model 3 will have more range than the Bolt, i.e. 240 miles, then the 75kWh version will have 300, just math. These are all numbers for the RWD version.

 

[aronth5]

Are you comparing the wheelbase dimensions scaled from the Model S? Don't forget the placement of the motors is more inboard for the Model 3, which changes the layout and thus actual space for the pack itself.

Point well taken. The motor placement in the 3 is in front of the back wheels which definitely reduces space for the battery pack compared to the S/S. There was another thread that clearly showed this to be case. How much that affects the total capacity is a different question but one cannot assume the space for the battery pack based on the S/S dimensions.

 

[timk225]

Since the 3 motor is in front of the rear wheels, that opens up space behind the wheels, space which could be used for a second 2 or 3 layer battery pack. But people here seem to love to cry about the trunk space, like it is in the top 10 list of things to think about. God forbid Tesla makes the trunk even the least bit smaller than the maximum size it can be, even if it allows more battery and 50 plus more miles.

 

[dsvick]

Since the 3 motor is in front of the rear wheels, that opens up space behind the wheels, space which could be used for a second 2 or 3 layer battery pack.

Sure there would be room there to add more batteries at the expense of cargo space but you'd also be adding a ton of complexity as well. Instead of having a single battery pack, you would have two separate, completely different battery packs that would require their own BMS, their own connections to the motors, their own connectors to the charging system, connections to each other, and a lot more added complexity. It could be done but the upgrade price would be hideously expensive compared to going from 60kWh to 75kWh with the single pack.

 

[techmaven]

I think there is a very good chance the base Model 3 has a lower EPA range than a Bolt. But the highway range will be higher.
The EPA range uses a combination of the city and highway tests and favors the city tests. The AC induction motor is more efficient than the PMAC at cruising around at steady speeds and much less efficient during acceleration and deceleration. So city tests favor the PMAC motors like those in pretty much every other EV, but highway cruising goes to the Tesla. Add in the effects of aerodynamics, and I think the Model 3 will have an easier time making Supercharger jumps when range really matters. But I think there is a very good chance the Bolt will carry the promotional headline figure.

 

[shrspeedblade]

Sure there would be room there to add more batteries at the expense of cargo space but you'd also be adding a ton of complexity as well. Instead of having a single battery pack, you would have two separate, completely different battery packs that would require their own BMS, their own connections to the motors, their own connectors to the charging system, connections to each other, and a lot more added complexity. It could be done but the upgrade price would be hideously expensive compared to going from 60kWh to 75kWh with the single pack.

I agree, it could give the car pitiful cargo space, which would be criticized far worse than 30 miles less range.

Not to mention, the layout with the motors and battery pack inside the wheelbase and low in the chassis is ideal for handling, this is a sports sedan after all!

It's not lying one bit if it's what they can do with current technology and looking at the car as a whole engineering exercise, not a one trick pony. Range is important, but it's not the end all be all of a car regardless of its powertrain.

 

[powertoold]

300 mile range for the 75kWh is enough for 98% of people. Tesla should be focusing on other aspects of the car. We're way too caught up in range. The 75kWh Model 3 will have 300+ range for sure.

 

[PJFW8]

300 mile range for the 75kWh is enough for 98% of people. Tesla should be focusing on other aspects of the car. We're way too caught up in range. The 75kWh Model 3 will have 300+ range for sure.

People who need range (example: Midwest, Canada and trailer owners) are caught up on range. Folks with a mild or no winter or who don't travel much are not.

 

[Garlan Garner]

300 mile range for the 75kWh is enough for 98% of people. Tesla should be focusing on other aspects of the car. We're way too caught up in range. The 75kWh Model 3 will have 300+ range for sure.

Yeah...what about 0-60 times? I'm interested in that.

One reason why I think Tesla had to improve the Models 0-60 times in the Model S is because the Model 3 has the opportunity to surpass the Model S. If Tesla is hard set on the Model S having the best numbers available, then they will either have to:

1. Purposely make the Model 3 less quick and/or with a shorter charge range.
2. Purposely improve the model S to keep it surpassing the Model 3.
Or a combination of both.

Remember it was promised by Tesla/Elon a while ago that the base level Model 3's 0-60 times were going to come in less than 6 seconds. At the time that was mentioned up to a few weeks ago....the base model Model S was coming in at 5.6. They had to improve the Model S's baseline 0-60 times because of their own Model 3 promises.

 

[Candleflame]

the annoying thing is that most people pick their cars based on size and not on range or peformance. There are people who want to drive a BMW 3 series with good performance and there are people who want to drive a BMW 5 series with good performance. Yes, the 5 series at the same time usually has slightly more features, however, the Model S does have a lot more tech than the 3 too.

I would not get a Model S as it is just too big for my needs and less fancy tech (by this I mean stuff like automatically presenting door handles) means less chance for things to break.