Is PG&E going to automatically move us to E-TOU-C?
- Thread starter sorka
- Start date
power.saver
Supporting Member
Ampster
Active Member
I think that is for all the people xho are on tiered rates. Several years ago the California Energy Commission told the utilities the needed to move people to TOU rates. The philosophy was that they hoped that would cause people to change their consumption patterns and that the grid would be less stressed from 5 to 9 PM.
After 2022, I assume everyone will be forced to TOU rates in Calif, other than the early solar folks on NEM1 who get to stay on tiered?
Ampster
Active Member
It is not safe to make assumptions about anything to do with electric rates without doing research.
NEM 1.0 is not a rate guaranty. It is a concept about how power gets credited depending on the tariff (rate) one chooses. As a policy rule dictated by the CEC the NEM concept applies to all the Investor Owned Utilities in California. Each IOU applies for unique rates from the CPUC that change as often as every six months. Each IOU has their own timeline for the CEC mandated transition. There are certain opt out provisions to allow people to stay on tiered rates.
As to people on tiered rates, it all depends. Where I have been standing for the past eight years I would never stay on a tiered rate. Typically I have consummed several thousand kiloWatt hours more than I generate annually but I have always had a negative dollar True Up. I could not do that on a tiered rate.
holeydonut
Supporting Member
Yep, that's why you're seeing all those ads show up on TV trying to get people to act more "green". That "let it shine" ad makes me want to barf. The problem is the TOU philosophy is that their idea of changing consumption patterns causes a lot of stupid behavior. Here are some of their recommendations:
1) pre-cooling a home AC during off peak then hoping to ride the coldness through the peak time without the home getting too hot. This makes the house wildly uncomfortable compared to what a normal person would actually want.
SmartDay™ Tips
2) Cooking meals at odd times and with novel methods to avoid energy use during the 6pm peak. PG&E calls these “stove free” meals. I guess cold cut sandwiches for dinner will be a fad soon.
3) Not running the washers (clothing or dishes) and dryers until a weird hour so you wake up to yesterday’s soggy clothes or having to fold wrinkly clothes at 7am.
https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/rate-plans/time-of-use/ETOUB.pdf
4) Lowering the setting of your TV brightness to save energy during peak time.
Adjusted TV settings can reduce power use by 5 - 20% - PG&E - Energy Trends
Luckily charging an EV overnight is a simple task.
And of course if homeowners don't do this effectively PG&E will blame them for failing to come through for the better of all Californians.
Ampster
Active Member
I don't know how the average person is going to change their energy consumption. It is a fun intellectual challenge for me to do so with the available technology. I see comments on social media from people that don't even know how to read their utility bill to determine if gas usage in therms or electicity usage in kWhrs has caused their bills to increase.
Ampster
Active Member
I was kind of hoping you would agree with my first statement about making assumptions. I was trained in economics, and while we always had to make assumptions, it was important to test if those assumptions were correct.
Always very hard to get a set of assumptions that are not biased some how and we can agree on. I remember numbers folks at work telling me that whatever outcome I wanted, they could always make numbers work
I also remember when I asked a high level manager when I was young about the numbers to justify a product transfer. He told me you can always play with numbers to get what you want, but he used his experience and gut to decide. Those comments have stuck with me for life.
Ampster
Active Member
Exactly my point. Some assumptions can be fact checked. You made the assumption that NEM dictated a rate when in fact NEM policy and rates are two different processes. I described NEM as a concept but a few searches describes it more accurately as a billing process. It describes the concept of how solar generation gets credited irrespective of rates in effect at that time
My point was not to prove you wrong, but more to help others distinguish the difference. I often see people assume that NEM garanteed them a rate, a TOU time frame or a payback period.
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I do not believe I said that, but, I agree on your point. Stuff is way too confusing, and is changed constantly. Too bad the changes do not seem to help us consumers.
Ampster
Active Member
No you didn't, but there was a possibility that someone might imply that NEM 1.0 and tiered rates were linked. I just wanted to make clear there was a distinction. The shift from tiered rates to TOU rates was actually a policy dictate by the CEC. I am process oriented and see things on that context. For those that care it may be helpful.
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Talk about confusing. You should see the 10-page monthly PG&E NEM Detailed Summary we just received (we have SVCE as our community aggregator). No idea if everyone with solar/PWs receives something like this be it with another CCA or other utility like in Southern Calif. It has numerous tables for calculation of usage and generation and by peak, partial peak and off peak (summer/winter rates) and then broken out by each of the various costs/fees like Decommissioning etc. Summary has no footnote or legend as to what all the abbreviations/anacronyms mean, or how to take results from one table, apply it to another and know which get directly factored into your actual bill. Some are readily discernible but others not. My husband in talking to PG&E suggested they at least show a legend somewhere on the form. Was told we basically only had to look at the first page!
I’m sure they are required to be transparent in how everything is arrived at but doubt most customers even take the time to try to understand how the numbers were derived. So yes, just look at the first page.
I’m sure they are required to be transparent in how everything is arrived at but doubt most customers even take the time to try to understand how the numbers were derived. So yes, just look at the first page
.To corroborate this (not that it needs corroboration), I am on NEM 1.0 with Southern California Edison (SCE), and still on a tiered plan. Since I installed solar in late 2015 (PTO early 2016), my "Tier 1" charge from SCE has gone from 14 cents a kWh to 22 cents a kWh. They (SCE) has also gone from 4 tiers to 3, and changes in each of the tiers costs.
What hasnt changed is the fact that I get 1:1 net metering, and, more importantly, my NBCs are low. The structure of my net metering hasnt changed, even if the cost numbers plugged into the formula changes.
I have looked at going to a TOU plan (any plan) and any TOU plan increases my yearly costs somewhere around 800-1k by even SCEs rate tools. I really could use some more solar on my home, but getting more solar would force me onto a NEM 2.0 plan (or 3.0 if I wait "too" long).
Since I bought the Model 3 in late 2018 and drive (in a normal year) 17-19k miles a year, my true up on electricity with those amount of miles was about $500. Of course, I didnt buy 2.5k worth of gasoline that year, so I came out ahead.
This year, I will likely be net zero or have a small credit, since I didnt drive nearly as much because, well we all know why, lol.
Keeping NEM 1.0 is likely better for me than adding to my solar and getting switched to NEM 2.0 (or whatever else comes after that) even if I am a net consumer during the year.
NEM is basically a structure of how the utility will credit you for excess generation and charge you, but there are not any rate locks for it.
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Talk about confusing. You should see the 10-page monthly PG&E NEM Detailed Summary we just received (we have SVCE as our community aggregator). No idea if everyone with solar/PWs receives something like this be it with another CCA or other utility like in Southern Calif. It has numerous tables for calculation of usage and generation and by peak, partial peak and off peak (summer/winter rates) and then broken out by each of the various costs/fees like Decommissioning etc. Summary has no footnote or legend as to what all the abbreviations/anacronyms mean, or how to take results from one table, apply it to another and know which get directly factored into your actual bill. Some are readily discernible but others not. My husband in talking to PG&E suggested they at least show a legend somewhere on the form. Was told we basically only had to look at the first page!
I’m sure they are required to be transparent in how everything is arrived at but doubt most customers even take the time to try to understand how the numbers were derived. So yes, just look at the first page
I'm on PG&E and I get the "big bill". Usually called the B&W bill on this forum. mine is usually 12 pages. I think you get these if you have 3+ PWs
Ampster
Active Member
There is an argument that consumers that cannot afford solar should not subsidize those of us who do. The lobbyists for these groups get support from utility lobbyists who bring pressure on CPUC to implement changes that erode the benefits of solar.
My interest in understanding how this works is so I can invest strategically to reduce or mitigate what I see as increases in my energy costs.
Totally agree, which is why I am here. Trying to learn since things change all the time, like the PGE rates will continue to go up.
I’ll only reply with there are plenty of programs that give all kinds of breaks on electricity and solar that others pay for so...
Merrill
Merrill
Pacific Graft and Extortion do not want to understand your bill, none of it makes sense as far as TOU. You want me to cook after 9pm, it is all BS so they can make more money. I’m with Sonoma Clean Power but unfortunately they have no control over rates or plans, the right thing to do is for the state to get rid of the power company monopolies and have micro grids that are controlled by the CCA’s.
