Is plugging in at a public place stealing?

[Jkam]

http://www.staradvertiser.com/newspremium/20120409__unauthorized_charges.html?id=146634565

There are no social norms when it comes to plugging in cars in public places, but people do something similar all the time with cell phones and laptops and no one seems to mind. Yet when you plug in a car, it can be considered stealing. Interesting debate. It is going to take some time to figure out what is acceptable for plugging in a car.

 

[Tesla 940]

Laptop versus Car

The power usage of a phone or laptop is microscopic compared to a car - even when using a 110 outlet.

 

[widodh]

I'd say yes. You are taking something (electricity) which is not yours. Always ask the owner of the outlet for permission.

 

[Doug_G]

Personally I wouldn't do it without asking permission.

Well, probably if I was stranded in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no other choice, and the car on fumes, I might in desperation plug in to an available outlet. But I wouldn't leave the car, and if the owner of the plug showed up I'd give him $10 even if he kicked me off.

 

[smoothoperator]

http://www.staradvertiser.com/newspremium/20120409__unauthorized_charges.html?id=146634565

There are no social norms when it comes to plugging in cars in public places, but people do something similar all the time with cell phones and laptops and no one seems to mind. Yet when you plug in a car, it can be considered stealing. Interesting debate. It is going to take some time to figure out what is acceptable for plugging in a car.

Depends if your an EV or PHEV :biggrin: all jokes aside, I think it is dishonest to just plug into an outlet without asking.

 

[zack]

At $0.12/kwh, it takes about $7 to charge the Roadster from empty. The on-board metering will supply a very accurate number for each charge. Be sure to tip.

 

[NigelM]

Personally I wouldn't do it without asking permission.

Well, probably if I was stranded in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no other choice, and the car on fumes, I might in desperation plug in to an available outlet. But I wouldn't leave the car, and if the owner of the plug showed up I'd give him $10 even if he kicked me off.

"on fumes"....?? :wink:

Joking aside; it is stealing, but I'd do the same as Doug_G

 

[Talkredius]

better I don't tell you what I have done during the Roadster Invasion Swiss, when I got nearly stranded on my way back, from Geneva absolutely tired, and no one to ask at 2 am. I was lucky to have the best passenger for this matter on board, I guess he can smell electricity from a far distance. :biggrin:

With him on board I would cross the Sahara, I'm sure he 'll find a socket at nearly every corner. ( three phase of course:wink:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[CroDriver]

We don't have a single public charging station (or plug) for EVs in my country. Sometimes my range is not enough for all daily needs so I plug it in a public garage. The garage is very expensive since it's located in the city center so I don't consider the topping-up as stealing. I can charge a maximum of 10% worth electricity per hour paid for the parking. Unfortunatley, someone always unplugs the car while charging.

 

[dsm363]

We don't have a single public charging station (or plug) for EVs in my country. Sometimes my range is not enough for all daily needs so I plug it in a public garage. The garage is very expensive since it's located in the city center so I don't consider the topping-up as stealing. I can charge a maximum of 10% worth electricity per hour paid for the parking. Unfortunatley, someone always unplugs the car while charging.

That sucks. If you don't already have it, you should get the OVMS or Tattler then so you know when that happens.

 

[Doug_G]

"on fumes"....?? :wink:

Of course. Electronics don't run on silicon, they run on smoke. Proof: if you let the smoke out, it stops working. QED.

But seriously, by "on fumes" I mean "not enough electrons to hold up a balloon"

Okay I wasn't serious. :tongue:

 

[daniel]

I agree: Ask before plugging in, unless it's clearly a car charging spot. If there's a plug and a sign saying "EV Parking" it's a good bet you can plug in.

If it's an emergency, and it's a business with an outdoor plug, and there's nobody around to ask, go ahead and plug in, but make it a point to get in touch or visit during business hours, tell them what you did and how much electricity you took, and offer to pay them whatever they ask, and then add a tip to that.

With a 245-mile range, I don't even carry a charging cable in my car.

 

[dsm363]

With a 245-mile range, I don't even carry a charging cable in my car.

You don't need really to but you don't even carry the 110V plug for emergencies?

 

[vfx]

Full text:

Honolulu Star Advertiser

April 9, 2012
by William Cole

Unauthorized Charges

The Army warns electric car owners that plugging in a private vehicle at a government outlet is illegal
The question was posed on an Internet forum for Chevy Volt owners: Is it OK to charge your electric car's battery from an open outlet at, say, a public university parking garage?
Col. Douglas Mulbury, commander of U.S. Army Garrison Hawaii, will answer that question for you.
Taking government-procured electricity from any building to charge a privately owned vehicle is illegal, he said.
"It is stealing and will be treated as such by law enforcement personnel and should be by all Army leaders as well," Mulbury said recently in the military newspaper Hawaii Army Weekly. The exception would be one's home on base, where the electricity is monitored.
The growing presence of plug-in electric vehicles is sparking some debate over the common outlet, which used to be good only for lamps, TVs and power tools but now can be used to "fill up the tank" on the family car.
Army leaders are quick to note that there has not been a run on government wall socket use, but there have been a "couple of recent inquiries and discussions with soldiers and employees of the installation about ‘Where can I plug my car in?'" said Jim Dutt*wei*ler, the Army's deputy garrison commander for Hawaii.
"So we just thought we'd get out in front of the issue of people plugging into their (office or other) buildings — because the taxpayer is paying for the electricity in that building," he said.
Duttweiler added that "there's just no social norms on this stuff yet."
"Fifteen years from now we'll probably be in the situation where nobody would even dream of going up and plugging their car into somebody else's building or house without getting their permission — but right now it's like, OK, we've got to remind people that we just don't give away resources for free," he said.
The Army in Hawaii spends about $60 million a year on electricity, Dutt*wei*ler said.
Most plug-in electric vehicle owners in Hawaii power up at home, often using a special 220⁄240-volt charging unit. A 110⁄120-volt charge at work can run from pennies to a few dollars, depending on duration.
There were 704 electric cars registered in Hawaii as of Feb. 12, 436 more than a year ago, according to the state Department of Business, Economic Development and Tourism.
Pike Research, based in Boulder, Colo., said global availability and increasing sales of electric vehicles in 2012 will put an end to the "are they for real?" speculation. It projects that in 2017 sales of plug-in electric vehicles in Hawaii will reach 6.3 percent of total light-duty vehicle sales — the highest percentage in the nation.
A bunch of electric vehicles — including the Volt, Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi i and a plug-in version of the Toyota Prius — are being touted even as Hawaii's highest-in-the-nation gasoline prices hit a rec*ord $4.608 Friday for a gallon of regular unleaded.
In Hawaii and elsewhere, though, the rollout is creating some charge-up static.
A condominium board in Ottawa fought a resident who was charging his Chevy Volt via a condo outlet, even though the car's owner, Mike Nemat, said it used only about a $1 a night in electricity, CBC News reported in January.
All the residents share the electricity bill, and the condo board said it should not pay for fuel for electric cars because it does not pay for fuel for other cars.
Matt Stehouwer, a technology manager at Michigan State University, was charging his Volt at a campus outlet outside his office when the university told him to stop. "They don't want to set precedent by giving electricity to faculty and staff," Stehouwer said of officials at the university, which has fee-based parking.
"We're talking about six kilowatts of power that I would need," Stehouwer said by phone. "The Volt, from an empty charge, takes about 12 kilowatts."
With university's power rate at 8 cents per kilowatt-hour, that's 48 cents. He offered to pay the university $20 a month for the electricity but was turned down, he said.
"They installed six (commercial) charging stations, but they charge $2.50 an hour, which is the equivalent of $9 for a gallon of gas," Stehouwer said. "I was like, why install them? — because nobody's going to use them."
Stehouwer said he thinks using available electricity, whether at workplaces, parking garages or elsewhere, will become more of an issue partly because there will be more electric vehicles.
Electricity also is routinely used for many other things without much concern, he said.
"Not to say a lot of people are doing it and (that) makes it OK, but everyone charges their cellphones, they charge their laptops, which as a whole is taking a lot more electricity off our university than charging cars," he said.
The University of Hawaii's Parking Services division reported no incidents of electric vehicle owners tapping into electrical outlets on the Manoa campus, said Phyllis S.K. Look, marketing and communications manager for campus services.
Look noted that the university has a partnership with Better Place, a charging network that has a contract with the state for more than 130 charging stations and offers free charging until the end of 2012, including at two locations on the lower campus.
Don Bennett, an Ewa Beach resident who has put more than 10,000 miles on his black Nissan Leaf since July, said he sometimes plugs in at one of the free stations, but he meets most of his driving needs powering up at home, with a photovoltaic system reducing the cost.
The 20 to 24 kilowatts it takes to fully charge his Leaf gives him 80 to 100 miles of driving and takes 41⁄2 to five hours with a 220-volt charger, he said.
Hawaii has the highest electricity rates in the nation, with Oahu at an average residential rate of 32.6 cents per kilowatt-hour for March. Rates from 9 p.m. to 7 a.m. are lower.
The Army's Duttweiler said the service isn't going to provide to base electric vehicle owners what could amount to several dollars' worth of electricity.
"Three or four dollars a day in electricity for electric car users is not large in the grand scheme of things, but you could say the same thing about gasoline — the military is a huge consumer of gasoline, but we wouldn't think about giving an employee or family member a gallon of gas because they drove their car up here empty," Duttweiler said.
Navy Region Hawaii said employees are "responsible for the proper fueling of their private vehicles," and there are no electric fueling stations available on base for private use.
The Army said it is working with the Army and Air Force Exchange Service to see whether the military merchandiser is willing to install charging stations, which run $5,000 to $10,000, on Army bases, Duttweiler said.
Margaret Larson, a vehicle specialist with the state Energy Office, said a network of more than 200 charging stations is being put in across the state.
The workplace "is the next step," Larson said. "Right now the condos and apartments are kind of our biggest challenge in terms of working with homeowner associations and (electric vehicle) drivers to install chargers. The workplace is the second spot that we really need to address — it's really where your car is parked all day long."
A forum at gm-volt.com last year asking about "stealing" electricity found in a poll of 82 people that 40 thought it was OK to use an open outlet, and 42 thought it was not.
The poll accompanied a post asking whether it was acceptable to plug into an outlet at a public university parking garage.
"Considering that the cost is so cheap, and that you are cleaning everyone's air by driving a Volt, I would call it a wash," said one respondent.
"Sorry folks but I can't see how this is any different than someone parking in front of my house and plugging into one of my outlets," said another.
"Yeah it doesn't cost me much but it is stealing."

Brenda Naki, executive assistant to Col. Douglas Mulbury, commander of U.S. Army Garrison Hawaii, holds the plug used to recharge electric Army vehicles at Wheeler Army Airfield. Mulbury has made it clear that unauthorized use of the charging stations will be treated as stealing.

 

[neroden]

Stupid and not conforming to social norms.

Social norms are that you can plug your stuff in *if* you
(1) aren't blocking the socket owner from using the plug;
(2) aren't overloading the grid;
(3) make a point of paying for your usage.

Social norms are NOT that you need to "ask permission first", although you should do so if possible (i.e. if there IS anyone there to ask), in order to avoid overloading the grid or blocking the owner.

(This is assuming you are someplace you are allowed to be, because social norms do have rules about trespassing.)

If you don't have an opportunity to pay for your usage, that's not a good situation, but in an emergency, you'd best plug in and send the owner money in the mail.

"Permissions culture" -- ask before you do anything, no matter how harmless or even helpful, no matter whether there even is anyone to ask -- is expanding, but it's toxic to society, and it should be killed. It is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

They better stop giving away free parking spaces to vehicles - it's unfair to anyone who walks, carpools or takes public transit!! The parking space for a car is a $5+/day subsidy.
Oh, let's turn all the water fountains from free to paid. Drop in a quarter before you drink!
Better charge for using the toilets also. There is a real cost for the space they occupy and for someone to come and clean them!

Free coffee? Free Soda? Fawhgeddabboutit!

You should ask before plugging, explain briefly what it costs, and offer to pay, while mentioning the more valuable subsidies the employer or taxpayers give to a select group, like the parking space, or coffee drinkers!

Cancel all that meeting food - it's not fair to people not in the meeting... Absurdity knows no end...

 

[BYT_P1837]

Is spilling fossil fuels that are a hazard and pollutants not littering at best?

 

[de704]

Is plugging in at a public place stealing?

I prefer to call it Guerrilla charging.
Guerrilla charging: theft or public service? | Plug In America

 

[daniel]

You don't need really to but you don't even carry the 110V plug for emergencies?

Nope. I carry a cell phone for emergencies. If I was going to drive anywhere near my range limit, I'd carry both the UMC and the 120v cord. But since I never do drive that far (245 miles is a LOT of driving, and I've never driven that far in a day except on road trips, and then I take the stinker for a variety of reasons, including luggage space and driving comfort as well as range) any "emergency" is vanishingly unlikely to involve the need to charge the pack. A Leaf would probably be a very different matter. And I always carried a cord in the Xebra, though in four years I never had to use it because I didn't take the Xebra if I needed to drive too close to its range. That 245 mile range was one of the reasons I decided to buy the Roadster, and is one of the reasons I am so happy with it. (Fun to drive, and looks, are other reasons.)

On the subject of plugging in to public outlets:

Taking anything without permission is stealing. If we want the general public to see us in a good light we should not steal. However, public institutions and the military should have policies whereby EV drivers could BUY electricity. Perhaps a standard marking meter with a rate appropriate to the power the associated plug can deliver. Probably a lot cheaper than the cost of installing an EVSE.

 

[vfx]

.... I carry a cell phone for emergencies.....

But do you carry a cord to charge your phone in emergencies?