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Is Tesla Adding CCS Chargers a Mistake? (TMC Podcast Clip)

srs5694

Active Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,362
1,746
Woonsocket, RI
Those opinions, IMHO, are missing the forest for the trees.

One of the bigger problems with EV charging in North America today is that it's fragmented. You've got Level 1, Level 2, and DC fast charging; and for the latter two, you've got Tesla vs. everybody else. (DC fast charging is really split in three, although CCS and CHAdeMO are usually co-located, and CHAdeMO is a fading standard.) This fragmentation creates a great deal of confusion for new or potential EV buyers and frustration for drivers (especially new drivers), who may find that they can't charge where they'd planned or wanted to charge, or who need to drive further or to a less-desirable location to charge.

If we had one charging standard per speed (I grant that there are technical reasons to differentiate Level 2 and DC fast charging), then this would be much simpler and easier for everybody. Tesla adding CCS cables is a step in the right direction on this score. To non-Tesla owners, that will greatly simplify things. Widespread availability of Tesla's CCS1 adapter (officially sold only in Korea at the moment) or a reciprocal inclusion of Tesla plugs at EVgo, Electrify America, ChargePoint, etc., stations would help in the other direction.

It's also possible that Tesla adding CCS cables will eventually enable Tesla to adopt CCS for Teslas in North America. If most or all Superchargers have CCS cables, then it would be in Tesla's long-term interest to adopt CCS on its cars, since this will mean that they will eventually (after a decade or two) be able to ditch their proprietary connector, saving costs on Superchargers and enabling better interoperability generally. Granted, use of dual cables during that 1- or 2-decade period will increase costs, but if the end result is a single standard in the future, that's a plus, in my view, compared to the alternative of continued fragmentation in the EV charging space. I also know that some people hate CCS and proclaim Tesla's proprietary connector to be superior, and I grant they have a point; but I'd much rather have a world standardized on the more-awkward CCS1 connector than continued fragmentation in the EV charging space. I want to be able to pull over at any highway service plaza in the US and charge my EV, no matter who built it, just as I can fuel any gas-powered car at any service plaza today.
 
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Went on a 3,000 mile trip a couple of days after taking delivery. Prepared as much as I could, but knew I was diving into the deep end of the pool. Stopped at a supercharger at a truck stop. Big truck stop. Lots and lots of open parking spaces close to the front door, however. . . . . .
Some stalls open, but there is a Suburban parked in one of them? Note, a little red car just barely visible on the other side of him. Before I was finished someone came from around front, got in and they left. Then I could really see the next car - a Blazer?? Perhaps just a little message from the ICE community??

It occurred to me that if I were Mary Barra and had thousands of Bolts I couldn't sell; what to do with them? Why, just park them in Tesla charging stations. That'll learn em. . . . . .
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There are large swaths of the US and Canada with no DCFC or only 50kW stations. Adding CCS cables to 25% of stalls in those locations makes a lot of sense and opens up additional locations that wouldn't have made financial sense without the additional revenue from CCS vehicles.

I do also think Tesla needs a smaller system (obviously with CCS ports) for rural areas. 150kva appears to be the sweet spot for transformer prices, so two 70kw cabinets (for redundancy) with a DC connected bus and 2-4 stalls. A respectable 140kW to a single vehicle connected and the option of adding a small megapack (minpack?) to get the full 250kW or add capacity during busy seasons.
 
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Went on a 3,000 mile trip a couple of days after taking delivery. Prepared as much as I could, but knew I was diving into the deep end of the pool. Stopped at a supercharger at a truck stop. Big truck stop. Lots and lots of open parking spaces close to the front door, however. . . . . .
Some stalls open, but there is a Suburban parked in one of them? Note, a little red car just barely visible on the other side of him. Before I was finished someone came from around front, got in and they left. Then I could really see the next car - a Blazer?? Perhaps just a little message from the ICE community??

It occurred to me that if I were Mary Barra and had thousands of Bolts I couldn't sell; what to do with them? Why, just park them in Tesla charging stations. That'll learn em. . . . . .
Empty charging stations are fair game for 5-10 minute ICE parking in my books. Public awareness will come with time.
 
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MorrisonHiker

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Mar 8, 2015
10,581
10,644
Colorado
Went on a 3,000 mile trip a couple of days after taking delivery. Prepared as much as I could, but knew I was diving into the deep end of the pool. Stopped at a supercharger at a truck stop. Big truck stop. Lots and lots of open parking spaces close to the front door, however. . . . . .
Some stalls open, but there is a Suburban parked in one of them? Note, a little red car just barely visible on the other side of him. Before I was finished someone came from around front, got in and they left. Then I could really see the next car - a Blazer?? Perhaps just a little message from the ICE community??

It occurred to me that if I were Mary Barra and had thousands of Bolts I couldn't sell; what to do with them? Why, just park them in Tesla charging stations. That'll learn em. . . . . . View attachment 813701View attachment 813700
If you look closely at the sign, you can see that non-Teslas can park in those spots for a limited time.
1654632968654.png


Spots that are reserved for Tesla Supercharging normally look something like this:
1654633077012.png
 
Not a fan personally and in fact, the Tesla Supercharger network is one of the primary reasons I went with one over some of the other options.

I do see potential value in areas where they need the additional non Tesla volume to make the install worth it so MAYBE I would change my mind but if they were to open them up in any large scale, I think they will see more people considering other brands more often if any can use the Tesla charging network.
 
All chargers should work for all cars. That's always been my view on it.

People shouldn't show up with their Ford Lightning to the Tesla Supercharger they've heard about through word of mouth and have their car not work with the chargers. Similarly someone who owns a Tesla shouldn't have any question about whether or not the public chargers they see will work with their vehicle.

It should be simple, if you see a charger and you own an electric car, you should be able to charge there and at full speed. How we get to that point is up for debate but one way or another that's what I want to see.
 
If >50% of stalls are empty what possible reason is there for parking in a disabied only spot
You managed to choose the interpretation that made the least sense. My intended meaning was if you pull up to treadmills-r-us (on a busy day with a mostly full lot) for curbside pickup of your new 200lbs treadmill and 3 of 3 disabled stalls beside the front door are empty, then sure park there and load up, so long as you're gone in <10 minutes and/or move if the local seeing-eye dog charity shows up to do a group buy on pet treadmills.
 

srs5694

Active Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,362
1,746
Woonsocket, RI
As stated above, there is a gray market adapter from Korea that allows tesla charging from a CCS charging cable.
Does there not also exist an adapter that allows CCS vehicle to charge from Tesla chargers? No need to build in extra cables, just carry around adapters.
Adapters to enable non-Teslas to charge on Tesla Level 2 EVSEs do exist; several third-party manufacturers make them. Adapters to enable non-Teslas to charge at North American Superchargers do not exist. If such a device did exist, it would require Tesla's cooperation for billing purposes if nothing else.

When Tesla first announced that it would be opening its Supercharger network to non-Tesla EVs, they initially said that this would require the use of adapters (which Tesla would sell) in North America. More recently, though, they've said that they plan to add CCS cables to Superchargers. (How many Superchargers? How many stalls per Supercharger? Both were unspecified, AFAIK.) Tesla hasn't released any detailed explanation of their thinking about why they'll do this (assuming their plans don't change again), but my suspicion is that it's so they can take advantage of government incentive programs, which are likely to require that any DC fast charging station that gets government funding support industry standards, which at this point means CCS (since CHAdeMO is clearly going nowhere in North America). Depending on the exact wording, adapters might or might not qualify. AFAIK, the relevant rule-making is still in progress, so the exact wording (and interpretation by the courts, if somebody sues over the issue) is not yet set. Thus, it's all in flux, which is likely to be helping to motivate Tesla to say as little as possible on the issue -- they may change their plans depending on exactly what materializes with such programs.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
12,158
8,001
Adapters to enable non-Teslas to charge on Tesla Level 2 EVSEs do exist; several third-party manufacturers make them. Adapters to enable non-Teslas to charge at North American Superchargers do not exist. If such a device did exist, it would require Tesla's cooperation for billing purposes if nothing else.

When Tesla first announced that it would be opening its Supercharger network to non-Tesla EVs, they initially said that this would require the use of adapters (which Tesla would sell) in North America. More recently, though, they've said that they plan to add CCS cables to Superchargers. (How many Superchargers? How many stalls per Supercharger? Both were unspecified, AFAIK.) Tesla hasn't released any detailed explanation of their thinking about why they'll do this (assuming their plans don't change again), but my suspicion is that it's so they can take advantage of government incentive programs, which are likely to require that any DC fast charging station that gets government funding support industry standards, which at this point means CCS (since CHAdeMO is clearly going nowhere in North America). Depending on the exact wording, adapters might or might not qualify. AFAIK, the relevant rule-making is still in progress, so the exact wording (and interpretation by the courts, if somebody sues over the issue) is not yet set. Thus, it's all in flux, which is likely to be helping to motivate Tesla to say as little as possible on the issue -- they may change their plans depending on exactly what materializes with such programs.
FYI Biden already said next week they will reveal the standard, basically it was mentioned up thread, four 150kW CCS stalls per location to get the federal funding. Only thing new is that the software needs to be the same across states and there needs to be data sharing.
 
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pp61

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
1,409
101
Switzerland
In Europe the sites are at a 25-30% premium to the Tesla rate, unless you signup to a $15/mth plan, in which case you get the Tesla rates.

Think in most markets this will mean Tesla will be at a premium to the alternates.
So I think usage will be minimal.
Currently the superchargers in Europe are getting to be very expensive. 50-60 ct/kWh is getting "normal" for a Tesla driver. Ionity, with 18 Euro/month you pay 31ct/kWh.
I even see that regular tesla drivers will start to use LESS superchargers and move to Ionity or other providers.
 

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