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Is Tesla really a green company?

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OK, so I watched the Elon Musk Model 3 presentation. He spoke, initially, of the horrors of climate change. So, I'm wondering how much does Tesla care about climate change? So I hunted through a recent Model S manual looking for keywords: CO2, greenhouse, carbon, emissions and climate. Among those words, 'emissions' occurred in only one section, and 'climate' appeared only with respect to 'climate control'. Frankly I doubt one car can control the climate ;-).

Now, I don't have access to a Model S, so my knowledge on this subject is limited. Yet even several months of lurking at the TMC site gives no indication there is any instantaneous car-generated feedback on this subject.

So given the above, I find it strange, that there is no apparent user interface in the Tesla (maybe the phone app?) that gives the driver ANY CLUE about how much less carbon is in the atmosphere, thanks to the recent EV trip driven. Nevertheless, there are all sorts of details about wHr/mi and rated range in the instrument panel(s). Now, I understand that the CO2 savings will largely depend on three things: 1) the best ICE substitute for the Model S (your baseline); 2) the electric fleet of generators in your area; and 3) how much of a lead-foot, you, the driver has. Still, given that #1 can be a pre-set user-preference; #2 could be updated based on GPS and statistics; and #3 is just driving history, why doesn't the green-friendly Tesla give some clues about what the day-to-day differences are, in the car's ample display screen.

Just to show you how little the apparent CO2 impact is, in my neighborhood (Dallas), I compared economy flights from DFW airport to ORD (Chicago). Carbon Footprint Ltd - Carbon Footprint Calculator reports such a flight is costing 190 kg of CO2. In contrast, the CO2 grid-impact is about 250 gm/mi to charge a Model S. Given driving DFW->ORD is 931 miles, then we have a 232 kg in CO2 release by the Model S. So that is 22% difference favoring flying (assumes single occupant driver). 61% better CO2 economy if two people ride the Model S. Driving an ICE would be about a 50% greater CO2 release than the Model S. So why does the average driver have to be married to a math major to get these rough approximations? Ignoring any quibbles over whether my math is right or not, what would it take for Tesla to surface this information to the driver?
Maybe some need the feel-good of being told what a good person they are with clean-car statistics. Personally I don't care about green car gimmicks.
 
To clarify, this isn't V2G that's being discussed. What MrBoylan is referring to are stationary storage products such as the Tesla PowerPack, which is (grossly oversimplified) a shipping container full of batteries to do the buffering function described.
I'm MrBoylan and I approve this message. :) I was referring to stationary storage (battery banks) for utilities. Once the cost comes down, this will be a no-brainer (IMHO, of course).
 
Bring on that stationary storage! The sooner it gets here, the sooner you all will stop being annoyed by my constant defense of nuclear power. :p

(I believe solar on a large scale is possible, but not until stationary storage is appropriately commercialized)
 
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Which makes the case for battery banks even more compelling. Instant power available for peak usage without spinning up a nuke or a coal plant. Charge them at night when usage is low, drain them during peak hours when necessary. Seems like a simple solution to a complicated problem. Just need the batteries to be cheaper. Hello, gigafactory.


Exactly. You have choices with an EV which you do not have with an ICE. Coal provided about 39% of the US grid in 2014 but only 33% of the grid in 2015. Things are getting better.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

BTW, you can look up each individual state's grid mix on that site too.

Most of the world's messy problems have easy answers if the cost comes down a little bit. :)

Which isn't to say I disagree with your point, and this one is actually getting fairly close to the tipping point I think, with trends that make it likely to happen fairly soon.
 
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Maybe some need the feel-good of being told what a good person they are with clean-car statistics. Personally I don't care about green car gimmicks.
I admit, I'm a sucker for pretty apps and gimmicks. I still love the goofy on-screen diagram on my Highlander Hybrid that shows when the ICE is working, when the electric engine is working, when the battery is being recharged by regen, etc. (I think it's the same in a Prius). If I owned a Leaf, I'd probably crash it from staring too long at those pretty trees. :)

But more so, I think something like this, done subtly, could influence driving habits for the better. Just seeing a real-time read-out of the MPG in my hybrid has made me much more aware about acceleration. When I floor it and see my fuel efficiency drop from 34 MPG to 3.4 MPG, I get an uneasy feeling, as I feel my carbon footprint getting larger. I know, overly dramatic maybe, but something to consider. Tesla already does this to a certain extent with the Wh/mile stat, but I think that could be tastefully expanded into something more impactful (and fun).

Too bad Tesla doesn't offer 3rd party app development (at least not yet). This would make a cool third party app if the app could tie into the car's actual energy usage in real-time.
 
Electricity also has to be produced and transported.
Yes, electricity does have to be created. But once it is created, the environmental impact is over. There's no additional emissions involved in running a car from electricity. And yes, electricity has to be "transported" but transported over wires, which is generally a lot more economical (and with limited environmental impact) compared to driving trucks full of gas and diesel fuel from refineries to gas company storage tanks to distribution centers to individual gas stations.

I think freds' point was that it costs a significant amount of energy (~5 to 6 kWh, IIRC) just to refine crude oil into a gallon of gasoline. So before you even start that ICE engine you've used at least 75 to 90 kWH of energy just filling the tank. Then once you actually *burn* the gas, you've got the direct local emissions of the ICE to worry about. In most cases, power plants which burn fossil fuel to generate electricity are located in less populated areas, and so the environmental impact is less damaging to the local environment as the emissions will be dissipated (although it's plenty damaging to the planet as a whole). With ICE's you get pollution in the plants and concentrated pollution in the local areas (cities and towns) where the car is driven. A double whammy.
 
As long as we are playing that game in this country where gas interests try to look far and wide for a way to claim EVs are no better than gasoline cars...might as well add a few things in for gas cars. Gasoline spent driving to and from gas stations, oil used in oil changes, where that oil goes after it's changed (often it burned), electricity required to power gasoline pumps, manufacturing of gasoline pumps, manufacturing of oil and gas transport trucks, diesel used by diesel transport trucks to transport diesel to the fuelling stations needed to provide diesel for the gasoline transport trucks, and on and on and on...

How about all of the net damage and added capacity needed on our roads for all those transport trucks? And then there's the extra road construction needed to repair that damage, using many diesel powered construction trucks, and on and on and on...

How about some investigative reporting into what it takes to pump, transport, and refine fuel? Where do the well to wheels reports get their information? I wouldn't be surprised to find some fraud in there somewhere where oil interests are covering up exactly how many resources the enterprise really requires.

Why do people even fight against EVs in the first place? Can't stand possibly saving the future because you might lose some vroom vroom engine sounds? Afraid you might have to spend a little more money to preserve the planet for future generations? If that's really a concern, then don't save any money for your children's future college, don't buy them nice clothes, feed them only enough to keep them alive. That's basically the same thing. Take as much as you can from your own kids so you can keep it all for yourself.
 
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As long as we are playing that game in this country where gas interests try to look far and wide for a way to claim EVs are no better than gasoline cars...might as well add a few things in for gas cars. Gasoline spent driving to and from gas stations, oil used in oil changes, where that oil goes after it's changed (often it burned), electricity required to power gasoline pumps, manufacturing of gasoline pumps, manufacturing of oil and gas transport trucks, diesel used by diesel transport trucks to transport diesel to the fuelling stations needed to provide diesel for the gasoline transport trucks, and on and on and on...

BINGO! If car companies were forced to do this, nobody would buy low MGP ICE cars, or ICE cars in general.

This would be a great EPA petition!
 
Bring on that stationary storage! The sooner it gets here, the sooner you all will stop being annoyed by my constant defense of nuclear power. :p

(I believe solar on a large scale is possible, but not until stationary storage is appropriately commercialized)

How much does a nuclear power plant cost? I'm sure the answer is "it depends" because they're complicated machines. But ballpark? $4B-$10B? I'm just guessing here. And how long does it take to build? Five years? I'm sure it depends, again. Anyway, for the cost & time of a nuclear plant, how much stationary storage could be built? Guestimates?
 
How much does a nuclear power plant cost? I'm sure the answer is "it depends" because they're complicated machines. But ballpark? $4B-$10B? I'm just guessing here. And how long does it take to build? Five years? I'm sure it depends, again. Anyway, for the cost & time of a nuclear plant, how much stationary storage could be built? Guestimates?
Check out this video from Fully Charged:
 
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From what I understand, the coal and nuclear plants generate the power whether one taps into the grid or not. They don't "ramp up" when you plug in your car. So if this is true, then how is charging a car with coal actually making the car less environmentally beneficial?
 
From what I understand, the coal and nuclear plants generate the power whether one taps into the grid or not. They don't "ramp up" when you plug in your car. So if this is true, then how is charging a car with coal actually making the car less environmentally beneficial?
I think you are rehashing the olde myth that coal plants throw away energy that can be used for 'free' by EVs.

It actually has a grain of truth, but only a grain.

Coal plants do not usually run at capacity, and grid operators always run some percent over load to avoid blackouts from sudden load demand spikes. So *any* appliance -- whether it be your microwave or your EV -- can dip into the reserve for some seconds and if the load is small enough it will not change power plant operation. That is the grain.

In general though increases in demand are followed by increases in generation.

The reality is that coal plants are run at a capacity to match 'baseload,' meaning loads that go on for hours rather than minutes. To the extent that a utility can run a coal plant cheaper than their other assets, you can bank on them burning more coal to feed your EV. The throttling time varies by plant. I think I've read as low as two hours and as long as eight. If your EV charging is predictable, the utility will look to fold it into baseload. As EV adoption grows, it becomes easier to predict load and timing.

And by the way, it is not too hard to envision a grid case wherein increased load at night narrows the gap between night and daytime, allowing the utility to use more coal at night to cover the increased demand, and then continue the increased coal during the day to the detriment of cleaner sources.
 
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The Union of Concerned Scientists' latest detailed lifecycle analysis comparing greenhouse gas emissions of EVs to ICE vehicles concludes unequivocally that EVs are far better than ICE when it comes to GHG emissions:

"Over their lifetime, battery electric vehicles produce far less global warming pollution than their gasoline counterparts—and they’re getting cleaner."

And:

"By the end of their lives, gas-powered cars spew out almost twice as much global warming pollution than the equivalent electric car."

Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave (2015)

The report also has a very nice map (copied below) that summarizes, by state, the equivalent MPG you would need in an ICE car to match an EV. In 67% of states you would need the equivalent of over 50 MPG. And the report notes that the green advantage over ICE is growing rapidly as more renewable sources of electricity come on line. In 2012 only 45% of states were in the highest category compared to 67% in 2015 -- only 3 years later.. So the large advantage that EVs already have will become a gaping chasm over the 15+ year life of a new car bought today.

Tesla also recognized from the very beginning that the cleanest use of an EV is when charging with power generated by the sun. The main idea behind Tesla Powerwalls and Powerpacks is to facilitate and encourage the use of solar power by allowing consumers, commercial solar energy generators and utilities to store power generated by the sun so it is available at night. Once the first segment of the Gigafactory is fully open for business later this year Tesla will likely start shipping its energy products in high quantities.

So the answer to the question of whether Tesla is a green company is, without a doubt, a resounding YES.


vehicles-m-emissions-map-no-notes.jpg
 
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