Is Tesla software limiting the launch and 0-60 times of the refreshed non plaid model s/x ?

[DayTrippin]

Interesting writeup. In a way since I want the Plaid X and they dont offer fold flat seats I am sort of stuck. Fold flat seats is pretty important to me for an SUV and we do utilize that feature. But you saying the LR is not much slower after 40mph+ makes me a little more content with my LR. If they just had the boost for the initial 0-30mph I would be set.

If I could have boosted the initial hit like the MY LR and M3 LR I had/have, I'd have been pretty happy. I am not saying there isn't a difference but the MS LR is very quick in this area. It is pulling like a Lambo which isn't a slow car.

It might be different with the Plaid X and LR as it is a bit heavier so I can't speak to it. Still, my most surprising takeaway so far is how well the MS LR matches up best against the Plaid in this speed range. You could be sleeping at the light in the Plaid and give the MS LR the hit and 2 car lengths to 60 and the Plaid will run it down by 60.

I've run a bunch of cars while on a roll in my LR and the only ones that beat me were Plaids. That includes a few Turbo Taycans and Turbo S Taycans I ran. Not saying it will beat everything, but the MS LR is pretty impressive once off the line.

If the LR gets the jump on the Plaid at 60, it will be a much more interesting matchup. The Plaid is going to catch it by 90. If the Plaid gets the jump at a roll, there is no hope but you won't feel so bad losing against it.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

If someone cares about Plaid vs. Saphire pricing, they will probably care about $15K, so if they can get 90% of Plaid performance for $5K instead of $20K, they likely will. Tesla actually already had experience with this, when they sold P90D separate from Ludicrous mode, and there were people who bought it. The latter was a $10K add on, and apparently that didn't work out well for Tesla bottom line, so they ended up dropping performance models without ludicrous.

But paying $20k more for Plaid is very different than paying $140k more for Sapphire!

I personally was willing to pay $20k more for the Plaid but the seat limitation was a deal breaker. What’s the point of an SUV if I can’t take my 2 dogs in it or carrying large items.

Now hypothetically if Lucid came out with a Sapphire SUV for $250k, I will not be willing to spend that kind of money.

I guess time will tell. They did it on the Y LR and I don’t think it destroyed the Y P sales.

Another point to note, I believe Tesla might already be making more profit on the X LR v the X Plaid. There is only a $3500 difference and it seems to me the Plaid is under-priced for the tri motor setup.

 

[whitex]

Another point to note, I believe Tesla might already be making more profit on the X LR v the X Plaid. There is only a $3500 difference and it seems to me the Plaid is under-priced for the tri motor setup.

$3,500 difference between what? When I look at Model S MSRP, Plaid is $20K premium, while the X Plaid is $10K premium. Tesla used to charge $5K for dual motor vs. single, so tri motor vs. dual for $10K or $20K seems right.

Also, if, as you say, Plaid is underpriced, then it would suggest lack of demand, which would be further be hit if they offered an LR with almost same performance.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

$3,500 difference between what? When I look at Model S, plaid is $20K premium, while the X is $10K premium. Tesla used to charge $5K for dual motor vs. single, so tri motor vs. dual for $10K or $20K seems right.

Also, if, as you say, Plaid is underpriced, then it would suggest lack of demand, which would be further be hit if they offered an LR with almost same performance.

Configure model X LR with 6 seat configuration. You will see that it is only $3500 less than the Plaid (which includes 6 seat configuration).

It used to be a $20k difference but they cut the Plaid more than the LR.

Now you say that there could a lack of demand for the Plaid. That may be true. But my point is it comes down to how much profit Tesla is making. I believe with their current pricing on the X they are making more money off the LR so then who cares about making sure they sell the Plaid well?

Why not offer us guys who wanted the 5 or 7 seat option which fold flat the option for more power? Or just offer the plaid with 5/7 seat option.

 

[whitex]

Configure model X LR with 6 seat configuration. You will see that it is only $3500 less than the Plaid (which includes 6 seat configuration).

Sorry but that is a useless number since it's not an apples-to-apples comparison since Plaid does not have the 6 seat configuration. I can configure a lower trim Taycan trim to cost only $3,500 less than the top model, but it doesn't mean that there is only $3,500 difference in price between trims.

Now you say that there could a lack of demand for the Plaid. That may be true. But my point is it comes down to how much profit Tesla is making. I believe with their current pricing on the X they are making more money off the LR so then who cares about making sure they sell the Plaid well?

I'm just saying that if you are right, and they cut Plaid more, that would indicate a lack of demand. They obviously still care about selling the Plaid, or they would have killed it off.

Why not offer us guys who wanted the 5 or 7 seat option which fold flat the option for more power? Or just offer the plaid with 5/7 seat option.

Could be not to decimate Plaid sales, and perhaps 6 or 7 seats cannot be equipped with Plaid without a massive redesign due to extra space and/or weight restrictions. Elon doesn't turn down money if it can be made without costing anything.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

Sorry but that is a useless number since it's not an apples-to-apples comparison since Plaid does not have the 6 seat configuration. I can configure a lower trim Taycan trim to cost only $3,500 less than the top model, but it doesn't mean that there is only $3,500 difference in price between trims.


I'm just saying that if you are right, and they cut Plaid more, that would indicate a lack of demand. They obviously still care about selling the Plaid, or they would have killed it off.


Could be not to decimate Plaid sales, and perhaps 6 or 7 seats cannot be equipped with Plaid without a massive redesign due to extra space and/or weight restrictions. Elon doesn't turn down money if it can be made without costing anything.

Plaid only comes in 6 seat configuration. Apparently it’s the most popular configuration. So it is an apples to apples price comparison. It’s $3500 difference between the LR and Plaid.

 

[Krash]

In case anyone missed it, the answer to original question is yes…

Is Tesla software limiting the launch and 0-60 times of the refreshed non plaid model s/x ?​

Every Tesla model is both torque and power limited. Both for positioning (differentiation) purposes as well as to limit warranty replacement exposure. They used to be back EMF limited as well but Tesla has made great advances in engineering around

You can lookup the exact limits by scanning the CANBus.

 

[whitex]

Plaid only comes in 6 seat configuration. Apparently it’s the most popular configuration. So it is an apples to apples price comparison. It’s $3500 difference between the LR and Plaid.

I stand corrected. You are right, they really do underprice the Plaid X (S is $20K premium), perhaps the demand there is really low. It would also explain Tesla only offering one configuration, as they've mostly gone to inventory based, rather than build-on-order model - it streamlines both production and inventory management. Porsche builds on-demand and has so many options that the number of possible options combinations exceed the volume of all Taycans ever made, probably all Taycans which will ever be made. BUT, it took me 20 months from order to pickup of my custom Taycan, while I could get a Plaid within a week.

PS> I would have had a Plaid S had Elon not re-invented the steering wheel. I knew the Taycan was going to take a while and I was going to get a Plaid for a couple of years of waiting, but I couldn't get over the yoke. The current rounded yoke option, still stalkless, is even worse, at least to me. Not that I'm looking to replace the Taycan any time soon, it drives/handles on a whole new level even compared to my old P85DL+ with sport plus suspension. It feels like the Model S used to feel to me when I first drove them - you look for opportunities to drive it.

 

[whitex]

In case anyone missed it, the answer to original question is yes…

Is Tesla software limiting the launch and 0-60 times of the refreshed non plaid model s/x ?​

Every Tesla model is both torque and power limited. Both for positioning (differentiation) purposes as well as to limit warranty replacement exposure. They used to be back EMF limited as well but Tesla has made great advances in engineering around

You can lookup the exact limits by scanning the CANBus.

Can you change those limits? If you know where they came from (which device reports it via CAN) you have a good starting point as to where the limit is stored. If the limit is queried by actual power components of the car, you can spoof CAN messages easily enough.

 

[whitex]

Don't let that stop you! My insurance went down by $300 a year going from the MS LR to Plaid.

Same insurance company, same model year?

 

[Krash]

Can you change those limits? If you know where they came from (which device reports it via CAN) you have a good starting point as to where the limit is stored. If the limit is queried by actual power components of the car, you can spoof CAN messages easily enough.

Ingenext are doing something similar and let you use different settings, but I think they are only using settings previously predefined by Tesla and not, say, dialing your torque or power limits up by say a variable few percentages.

You used to be able to see these values in diagnostic mode, but I don’t think you could ever change them there. Some torque and power settings had both car level limits as well as component (like an individual motor) limits.

I found the GUI_torqueLimitRequest section in this article interesting.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

I stand corrected. You are right, they really do underprice the Plaid X (S is $20K premium), perhaps the demand there is really low. It would also explain Tesla only offering one configuration, as they've mostly gone to inventory based, rather than build-on-order model - it streamlines both production and inventory management. Porsche builds on-demand and has so many options that the number of possible options combinations exceed the volume of all Taycans ever made, probably all Taycans which will ever be made. BUT, it took me 20 months from order to pickup of my custom Taycan, while I could get a Plaid within a week.

PS> I would have had a Plaid S had Elon not re-invented the steering wheel. I knew the Taycan was going to take a while and I was going to get a Plaid for a couple of years of waiting, but I couldn't get over the yoke. The current rounded yoke option, still stalkless, is even worse, at least to me. Not that I'm looking to replace the Taycan any time soon, it drives/handles on a whole new level even compared to my old P85DL+ with sport plus suspension. It feels like the Model S used to feel to me when I first drove them - you look for opportunities to drive it.

Right it seems that the Plaid tri motors themselves should cost more than $3500 over the dual motor setup. It seems like they are making less money on the Plaid X.

Either the X Plaid is underpriced or the S Plaid is overpriced. Probably a little of both.

If they want more Plaid X sales then at least offer the same options they offer in LR. I mean why try to streamline the less popular model which will make its sales even lower. They would have gotten my sale and I’m sure there are more like me.

I feel like someone is not using some common sense at Tesla. Elon? Lol

I’m giving Tesla 2 ways to make a little more money. They can get more money from me by offering boost for LR or Plaid in 5/7 seater.

Now it’s possible that there is some bracing in the Plaid that is getting in the way of the bench seat mounts and they would need to rework something. In that case offer boost for LR. Simply software, no physical changes to anything.

I’ll pay $5k for 100hp (+50hp front, +50hp rear)

 

[andrewr164]

Can’t wait for a paid long range performance upgrade.

 

[whitex]

Right it seems that the Plaid tri motors themselves should cost more than $3500 over the dual motor setup. It seems like they are making less money on the Plaid X.

Either the X Plaid is underpriced or the S Plaid is overpriced. Probably a little of both.

If they want more Plaid X sales then at least offer the same options they offer in LR. I mean why try to streamline the less popular model which will make its sales even lower. They would have gotten my sale and I’m sure there are more like me.

I feel like someone is not using some common sense at Tesla. Elon? Lol

I’m giving Tesla 2 ways to make a little more money. They can get more money from me by offering boost for LR or Plaid in 5/7 seater.

Now it’s possible that there is some bracing in the Plaid that is getting in the way of the bench seat mounts and they would need to rework something. In that case offer boost for LR. Simply software, no physical changes to anything.

I’ll pay $5k for 100hp (+50hp front, +50hp rear)

My guess Model X market is too small already for any such upgrade to provide a positive ROI. I remember Elon talking about how both X and S are not making profit anymore, that he's keeping them in production for sentimental value. Or was if deep fake Elon who said that? I guess we'll never know, now that Tesla lawyers claim you can never believe anything you see or hear Elon say unless you heard it in person, because the voice, video, or post might be AI generated deep fake.

 

[sandman1330]

Looking at the numbers between M3P and MSLR, it almost feels like a gear ratio issue. Hear me out:

- The MSLR has more HP than the M3P, yet we all agree it feels a bit sluggish right off the line (weight could be a factor here too);
- The MSLR has far more pull above 60 than the M3P (and feels fairly close to the plaid, as we've seen above);

I wonder if they lowered the final drive ratio in the gearbox for the MS over the M3. This would nerf it a bit off the line, but give more oomph at higher speeds, and a higher top speed. The Plaid may be overcoming this lower drive ratio with its extra power. Or perhaps the rear drive unit of the plaid has a higher final ratio, since the carbon sleeved rotors allow for higher RPM.

Thoughts?

 

[Kan-O-Z]

Looking at the numbers between M3P and MSLR, it almost feels like a gear ratio issue. Hear me out:

- The MSLR has more HP than the M3P, yet we all agree it feels a bit sluggish right off the line (weight could be a factor here too);
- The MSLR has far more pull above 60 than the M3P (and feels fairly close to the plaid, as we've seen above);

I wonder if they lowered the final drive ratio in the gearbox for the MS over the M3. This would nerf it a bit off the line, but give more oomph at higher speeds, and a higher top speed. The Plaid may be overcoming this lower drive ratio with its extra power. Or perhaps the rear drive unit of the plaid has a higher final ratio, since the carbon sleeved rotors allow for higher RPM.

Thoughts?

I think the new permanent magnet motors on both the Plaid and LR produce great power throughout the entire range and just keep pulling strong at higher speeds. The current M3, MY and older MS, MX all lose steam at high speeds but Tesla seems to have solved that issue with the new S/X. The new S/X also seem more immune to heat and battery drain issues. The performance stays strong even with repeated full throttle runs. Tesla has definitely done some great improvements here.

Now as for why the S/X LR have a slow start. It could be the gearing but just from seat of the pants feel you really do feel the power come on the as soon as you hit about 20mph. You can even feel this at half throttle - it will start a bit slow and then just "kick in" as soon as you hit 20mph. Just from this feel it seems the power is purposely being limited 0-30mph.

If it does have to do with the new motors just not being quite as strong at the low end as the previous motors, then the Plaid certainly makes up for that with an extra motor.

It could be both things. Perhaps a slightly weaker low end and also some software torque limiting going on. Hard to say. All I know is for all the 670hp the 0-60 should be a little better. The point to note is the older P100D also had 670hp and it's 0-60 was nearly 1 sec faster. Of course it would lose steam at higher speeds. In fact by the 1/4 mile, the LR catches up to the older P100D even being behind 1 sec to 60.

 

[WilliamG]

Looking at the numbers between M3P and MSLR, it almost feels like a gear ratio issue. Hear me out:

- The MSLR has more HP than the M3P, yet we all agree it feels a bit sluggish right off the line (weight could be a factor here too);
- The MSLR has far more pull above 60 than the M3P (and feels fairly close to the plaid, as we've seen above);

I wonder if they lowered the final drive ratio in the gearbox for the MS over the M3. This would nerf it a bit off the line, but give more oomph at higher speeds, and a higher top speed. The Plaid may be overcoming this lower drive ratio with its extra power. Or perhaps the rear drive unit of the plaid has a higher final ratio, since the carbon sleeved rotors allow for higher RPM.

Thoughts?

I'm really confused about the "feels fairly close to the Plaid" part of this post. There's nothing about the MSLR that's fairly close to the Plaid, at any speed. To back up a bit, the Model 3 P is actually a pretty slow car above 60mph considering how quick it is to 60, which really may well come down to gearing, though, as you state (the most likely explanation). You know it takes nearly half a minute for a Model 3 Performance to get to 150? That's slow. You can almost (within a second, in fact) get a first S Plaid to 150mph (with a Model 3 Performance taking off at the same time), have a second Plaid take off to 150mph once the first hits that speed, and then have a third Plaid take off when the second hits 150mph, and that third Plaid will almost beat that first Model 3 Performance to 150mph. Bananas.

Tesla Model 3 Performance vs Tesla Model S Plaid - FastestLaps.com

Compare performance of Tesla Model 3 Performance and Tesla Model S Plaid. Updated August 2022.

fastestlaps.com

Anyway, S Plaid will blow the doors off an S LR above 60. 60-130mph in 7.77 seconds is not in the same ballpark as a Plaid at under 5 seconds (seen some 4.5 second runs here).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=396935265384037

vs

A Rocket! Refreshed 2021 Tesla Model S Long Range 60-130.

Heck, Dragtimes drove a Porsche Taycan Turbo S 60-130mph in about the same amount of time, and we know the S Plaid destroys the Taycan Turbo S in a straight line.

2020 Porsche Taycan Turbo S 60-130 MPH

2020 White Porsche Taycan Turbo S runs 10.520 @ 129.480 http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche-Taycan-Timeslip-31117.html

www.dragtimes.com

Bottom line: Let's really not kid ourselves that the MSLR is in the same class of performance as a Plaid. It's not, and never will be.

 

[DayTrippin]

I think in the 60-100 range, the MS LR pairs up pretty well with the Plaid. I just bought a Plaid and the area where the performance of the Plaid really seemed much quicker was the launch and the 0-60 sprint.

Nobody is saying the LR is as quick as the Plaid. I think the LR matches up best with the Plaid best in the 60-100 range. It made me appreciate how good the LR was before but also how much Tesla obviously neutered it.

 

[sandman1330]

Let's really not kid ourselves that the MSLR is in the same class of performance as a Plaid. It's not, and never will be.

Whoa bro, slow your roll! I was just going off Daytrippin’s comments above. Not trying to crap on your plaid!

 

[WilliamG]

Whoa bro, slow your roll! I was just going off Daytrippin’s comments above. Not trying to crap on your plaid!

lol I don't take any of it personally, - no crapping! Just saying there's a gargantuan difference between the two cars.