Is Tesla software limiting the launch and 0-60 times of the refreshed non plaid model s/x ?

[Kan-O-Z]

The cars have a speed limit as well as a torque and power limit.

You are mistaken if you think that is the only purpose of the carbon wrap.

No. If the LR had three, four or six motors it would still go the same speed for a bit, but only if the torque and power limits were set to the current LR limits. But as soon as the back EMF limits the motors, the plaid would pull ahead. And the rate of change of the lead would increase over time until the velocity limit is reached, because the power difference will increase over time.

Not sure why that matters. A car could have a single motor, no carbon wrap and be well over 1200 peak hp. The back EMF limits the power at higher speeds.

You keep bringing up the motor being the limiting factor. The battery is the bigger limiting factor than the motor. I am very certain the Plaid motors can match the Sapphire 1200hp BUT the battery is smaller than the Sapphire.

I don’t think the Plaid has more room for power as it’s battery limited.

That is why I keep bringing up the LR. It has room to be pushed.

I don’t know if you have driven an LR but it accelerates FASTER at 60mph than it does at 10mph. Now how many cars on earth do that. None. It’s being neutered.

 

[uscbucsfan]

This doesn’t give the full picture but you can see a clue here:

M3P:
4048lbs, 450hp, 8.99lbs/hp
Drive Ratio: 9:1 (front), 9:1 (rear)
Performance: 0-60: 3.1sec (rollout subtracted), 162mph

MSLR:
4561lbs, 670hp, 6.8lbs/hp
Drive Ratio: 7.56:1 (front), 9.04:1 (rear)
Performance: 0-60: 3.1sec (with rollout), 149mph

MSP:
4766, 1020hp, 4.67lbs/hp
Drive Ratio: 7.56:1 (front), 7.56:1 (rear - 2 motors)
Performance: 0-60: 1.99sec (rollout subtracted), 200mph


Now check out the front drive ratio of LR and Plaid. Both are listed as 7.56:1.

Now check out the front drive ratio of M3P. That is listed as 9:1.

We know Tesla is all about re-using parts. The front is not from the 3 or Y.

It's not from the Plaid, either. I have a LR, but you've even acknowledged that the LR doesn't have any carbon wrapped motors.

Your simplification of the benefits of that don't match up with anything I've ever read about it.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

You keep telling us that, but that doesn't make it true. Look at the power graph. If you just could magically increase the max power of the old motors to the max power of the new motors you would still have the BackEMF decline in power at higher speeds. But if you added an old motor to get that max power then the added motor would have its own BackEMF power decline. So by the time you get to 150 mph, you have a third less power than the Plaid. Something like this...

View attachment 941365

Yeah it’s a great motor but it’s not all because of carbon wrapped. We can’t see the LR curve here but I can tell you there is no fall off at 60, even 80. It gets stronger at 60mph than it is at 10mph. I would bet the LR curve resembles the Plaid curve but just lower at 670hp.

They are also using new permanent magnets and that contributes to a more flat curve. The LR is way better at top end than the old performance and that’s without carbon wrap.

 

[Krash]

...It’s being neutered.

Its torque limited. Just like all Teslas have been torque limited for ten years. Each model has different torque limits set to price differentiate the cars and reduce warranty costs.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

Its torque limited. Just like all Teslas have been torque limited for ten years. Each model has different torque limits set to price differentiate the cars and reduce warranty costs.

But this feels different. Most cars are strong low end and fall off high end. The LR is literally the opposite of pretty much every car and it defies logic.

Maybe all Teslas are being limited for safety but the LR limiter feels like it’s more marketing related. It can be limited “less” for sure and still be well within safety standards. It shouldn’t feel slower at low speeds and faster at high speeds.

 

[uscbucsfan]

But this feels different. Most cars are strong low end and fall off high end. The LR is literally the opposite of pretty much every car and it defies logic.

Maybe all Teslas are being limited for safety but the LR limiter feels like it’s more marketing related. It can be limited “less” for sure and still be well within safety standards. It shouldn’t feel slower at low speeds and faster at high speeds.

Look at the charts posted. The cars open up more HP as they go faster.

 

[Krash]

...Maybe all Teslas are being limited for safety but the LR limiter feels like it’s more marketing related...

They ARE being limited for marketing reasons. That's what price differentiated means.

...I would bet the LR curve resembles the Plaid curve but just lower at 670hp...

Can we go double or nothing from your previous bets?

 

[Kan-O-Z]

@uscbucsfan and @Krash

I am certainly not trying to downplay the carbon wrapped. What Tesla has done is awesome. I was just making the point that the real benefits of carbon wrap is at the much higher speeds. No doubt the Plaid motors are awesome. They have accomplished low end and high end and top speed. That’s the combination of 3 motors, permanent magnets, carbon wrapped, and battery improvements.

This thread is about the low end 0-60 and why the LR feels just ok 0-60 but then wakes up and charges hard above 60.

 

[Krash]

...This thread is about the low end 0-60 and why the LR feels just ok 0-60 but then wakes up and charges hard above 60.

I can't comment on what you feel like charges hard. This thread could have been really short. In fact it could have been one line:

Is Tesla software limiting the launch and 0-60 times of the refreshed non plaid model s/x ? Yes. Tesla Torque limits the non plaid below the plaid.​

​

...I was just making the point that the real benefits of carbon wrap is at the much higher speeds...

Agreed

 

[Kan-O-Z]

Look at the charts posted. The cars open up more HP as they go faster.

They ARE being limited for marketing reasons. That's what price differentiated means.


Can we go double or nothing from your previous bets?

Ok to be more specific the LR curve will look more like the Plaid curve than the Performance curve. Why you ask? Because the LR is much faster 60-130 than the Performance 60-130.

I think you are making the mistake that the LR curve and Performance curve are going to be very similar. We already know the LR is much stronger than the Performance on the high end.

Where the LR curve will be different from the plaid is at the much higher speeds 130+. That is where the carbon wrapped make more of a difference.

What this tells us is that the new permanent magnet motors are actually really good even if they are not carbon wrapped.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

Look at the charts posted. The cars open up more HP as they go faster.

Right but you forget that wind resistance becomes exponentially larger as you go faster. We know the plaid will go 0-60 in 2 sec but 60-120 in 4 sec and that is purely because of huge amounts of wind resistance.

Now what I’m trying to say here is that the LR loses the 0-60 to the Performance by almost 1 second, then comes back and beats it to the quarte mile. Now that is just absurd.

 

[mlambert890]

Right but you forget that wind resistance becomes exponentially larger as you go faster. We know the plaid will go 0-60 in 2 sec but 60-120 in 4 sec and that is purely because of huge amounts of wind resistance.

Now what I’m trying to say here is that the LR loses the 0-60 to the Performance by almost 1 second, then comes back and beats it to the quarte mile. Now that is just absurd.

Wait wut? The LR doesn't lose to the Performance "by almost 1 second". These numbers of 2.3 seconds to 60 for the Raven are complete bullshit. I owned one for a year and launched the hell out of it. With rollout you can count on 2.4, but "rollout" is bullshit and the Palladium LR 0-60 doesn't account for it. Without the rollout bullshit, I would regularly see around 2.7fps via VBOX in my Raven. My buddy in his 2022 LR gets about 3.2. It's a half second difference. It also does not "come back to beat it to the quarter mile". The Palladium LR is good for maybe 10.9 in the quarter. I was easily able to get 10.6 in the Raven. The Raven Perf is quicker than the Palladium LR at every point (albeit not by much). This entire thesis is based on a serious exaggeration and/or misunderstanding of the difference between Raven Perf and Palladium LR.

 

[ucmndd]

If they didn’t care about LR why did they do boost for Y/3? It’s an extra way to make $$$. Why not.

Because it reduces the differentiation from their flagship and will very likely ultimately COST them money in lost Plaid sales and increased warranty claims.

It’s really pretty simple, just like it was 8 pages ago. They deliberately decided how fast they want the LR to go. That’s how fast it goes.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

Wait wut? The LR doesn't lose to the Performance "by almost 1 second". These numbers of 2.3 seconds to 60 for the Raven are complete bullshit. I owned one for a year and launched the hell out of it. With rollout you can count on 2.4, but "rollout" is bullshit and the Palladium LR 0-60 doesn't account for it. Without the rollout bullshit, I would regularly see around 2.7fps via VBOX in my Raven. My buddy in his 2022 LR gets about 3.2. It's a half second difference. It also does not "come back to beat it to the quarter mile". The Palladium LR is good for maybe 10.9 in the quarter. I was easily able to get 10.6 in the Raven. The Raven Perf is quicker than the Palladium LR at every point (albeit not by much). This entire thesis is based on a serious exaggeration and/or misunderstanding of the difference between Raven Perf and Palladium LR.

My apologies as for the quarter mile on the Raven v LR. The better comparison would be the P100D v LR. Both have exactly 670hp. The P100D will be faster 0-60. The LR will be faster 60-120. The LR will be faster in the quarter mile.

With the Raven if you do a rolling race at 50mph to half mile, the LR will pull ahead by a little.

To summarize: LR is very good at 50mph+! Better than all the previous models. So why is it not so good at 0-60! We know it’s being limited but the limiter is more aggressive than what they do on a M3 LR. And us LR owners would really appreciate if we could get the LR to perform as well as the old P100D 0-60.

 

[aerodyne]

We should lobby Tesla for a LR + package that unlocks the full power with upgraded, non ugly 20" wheels, tires and especially Half Shafts that don't have vibration "At any speed"

Say 10k. That should help profits a bit and I'd like to see TSLA north of 200.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

We should lobby Tesla for a LR + package that unlocks the full power with upgraded, non ugly 20" wheels, tires and especially Half Shafts that don't have vibration "At any speed"

Say 10k. That should help profits a bit and I'd like to see TSLA north of 200.

Agree but I want a software only upgrade as well since I already own an LR

Bring back the “ludicrous” option again. For those who choose to upgrade, the Insane button turns to a Ludicrous button.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

…and will very likely ultimately COST them money in lost Plaid sales and increased warranty claims.

Model S owners have nothing to lose when going from LR to Plaid (except of course money)

Model X owners are in more of a bind. The different seating arrangements are not available in the Plaid.

This has actually hurt X Plaid sales because several people including myself ended up with LR just so we could have the more usable seating setup of 5/7 seater. As I’ve said a bunch of times I need the seats to fold flat. Not possible in 6 seater.

Tesla would have gotten $20k more out of me if Plaid came with 5/7 seater. Now they can get $10k out of me if they offer boost for X LR.

Guess they don’t want my money.

 

[aerodyne]

Agree but I want a software only upgrade as well since I already own an LR

Bring back the “ludicrous” option again. For those who choose to upgrade, the Insane button turns to a Ludicrous button.

You ok with the half shaft vibes? I don't have them yet, but it's a matter of time I've been told.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

The Raven Perf is quicker than the Palladium LR at every point (albeit not by much).

Not above 50mph. LR will beat the Raven performance above 50mph. Even in your numbers you can clearly see the LR is starting to catch up to the Raven in the 1/4 mile. Trap speeds are higher in the LR too.

They just nerfed the 0-50mph in the LR a bit too much.

 

[Kan-O-Z]

You ok with the half shaft vibes? I don't have them yet, but it's a matter of time I've been told.

Agree they should fix that no doubt. But that should be a fix for all S and X models - not part of a software performance upgrade.

Because what you are suggesting is I would need to buy a new Tesla to get the performance improvements. I would like to have a software upgrade if possible.