Is the Model S a car for 10+ years?

[wdolson]

That is fantastic! I got a MS 90D in Dec. 2016. I've got about 7K miles. My 90% has dropped from 266 to 258 (3%). I mostly SC (about once a week), with an occasional home charge. I'm in SoCal so the weather is mild.

I've supercharged a few times, but the last time was in October. Tesla also suggests conditioning the battery from time to time and that helps keep the range up. The pack will charge to the state of the lowest cell and one or a few cells can get out of sync with the rest and artificially lower the rated range of the pack.

If you set charging above 90%, the system will rebalance those cells that have gotten out of sync. I do charge to 95% occasionally and then try to drive the car right away. After the last time I got the car back from the service center, they had set it to charge to 100% for some reason, even though they didn't charge the car at all when it was there. I caught it when the charge got up to 98 or 99%. I then unplugged the car and ran the heat until the charge state dropped to 95% (I wasn't planning on going anywhere right then).

It didn't seem to damage anything and I noticed the car started reporting 269 miles at 90% again. When it was new, it would report 268 or 269 at 90%. Kind of half and half. Last winter it got consistently down to 268 almost all the time, but now it's back to a mix of 268 and 269 after the accidental near 100% charge.

If the car has been sitting for a couple of days, the range can drop to 267 and occasionally 266. I've heard if the car is sitting plugged in for many days it only tops up every third day or so. There will be some vampire loss as the car sits with no charging.

 

[Viking1]

If you set charging above 90%, the system will rebalance those cells that have gotten out of sync. I do charge to 95% occasionally and then try to drive the car right away. After the last time I got the car back from the service center, they had set it to charge to 100% for some reason, even though they didn't charge the car at all when it was there. I caught it when the charge got up to 98 or 99%. I then unplugged the car and ran the heat until the charge state dropped to 95% (I wasn't planning on going anywhere right then).

I tried your suggestion. I ran the battery down to 8%. I then Supercharged it to 95% and drove it to work where it was at 87%. When I got home I charged it back up to 90%. I was "rewarded" with a 1 mile drop in my rated range at 90%. I wonder if my S90D, delivered in Dec. 2016, has a different battery or chemistry then your June car? I'm not real concerned yet, but I'm going to keep my eyes on it.

 

[wdolson]

Each battery pack is a little different. One cell that is a little lower capacity or degrades a bit faster than the rest can drag down the capacity of the whole pack. The rest of the cells are fine, but the capacity is limited by what the one cell can do. Some packs get lucky and get 7000 really good cells. I wish there was an easy way to identify weak cells and replace them, but as the videos by @wk057 have shown, getting at the cells in a pack is not trivial.

Among the people who got their cars in 2012 and 2013, a few had almost no degradation, but most saw about 5% over the first year, then it flattened out. A few people on the other end of the bell curve saw pretty bad degradation and I think some of those people got new battery packs at some point.

Other cars delivered around the same time as mine have seen some degradation. kmanauto who does YouTube videos and is here on the forum as @islandbayy has a 90D built just before the refresh and he's seen a lot of degradation over his first year. But he also puts a lot of miles on his car and supercharges a lot. I believe his original 60 had very minimal degradation, though I recall something burned out in his original battery pack (not any cells) and Tesla replaced it.

It was worth trying a recondition though.

 

[islandbayy]

Each battery pack is a little different. One cell that is a little lower capacity or degrades a bit faster than the rest can drag down the capacity of the whole pack. The rest of the cells are fine, but the capacity is limited by what the one cell can do. Some packs get lucky and get 7000 really good cells. I wish there was an easy way to identify weak cells and replace them, but as the videos by @wk057 have shown, getting at the cells in a pack is not trivial.

Among the people who got their cars in 2012 and 2013, a few had almost no degradation, but most saw about 5% over the first year, then it flattened out. A few people on the other end of the bell curve saw pretty bad degradation and I think some of those people got new battery packs at some point.

Other cars delivered around the same time as mine have seen some degradation. kmanauto who does YouTube videos and is here on the forum as @islandbayy has a 90D built just before the refresh and he's seen a lot of degradation over his first year. But he also puts a lot of miles on his car and supercharges a lot. I believe his original 60 had very minimal degradation, though I recall something burned out in his original battery pack (not any cells) and Tesla replaced it.

It was worth trying a recondition though.

My old MS 60 had a pack replaced at ~33,000 miles. Main contactor problem, just after the 1 year anniversary.
No degradation from that point until when traded in with over 80,000 miles on the ODO. That car had seen at MINIMUM 450+ supercharges, and a lot of very low close to zero, and very high close to 100% charges.

In comparison, my 90D, after one year and 33,000 miles, is down 20 miles of rated range. It's been babied in comparison to my old MS60. It's seen about 150 supercharges as of date.
Also, my 90D has gotten the Tesla Supercharging Speed limitation. When new, I could charge at ~115kW, now I'm limited at 94kW in best conditions. Range is not going back up.
Difference between the packs is Chemistry, the new packs have Silicone added to the Anode. My believe is that the original Chemistry was more robust, and the trade off in the new chemistry, is higher capacity with faster degradation.

The refreshed design has nothing to do with Chemistry, original "40's", 60's and 85's were original Chemistry. The Software limited 60's, 70's, 75's, 90's and 100's are the new chemistry. Not impressed to date.

On top of this, WK057 had sent me some cells to do a ton of benchmarking and testing on. I did the benchmarking, but need to find time to talk with him and discuss my findings, and I also did a a 1 year 3 month 100% charge test. Or in other words, after 1 year and 3 months of being kept at 100% SOC, we shall see what the degradation (Loss of capacity) is in these two cells. The cells are from a P85 original Chemistry. Build time I believe early 2014. Results coming soon.

 

[jerry33]

On top of this, WK057 had sent me some cells to do a ton of benchmarking and testing on. I did the benchmarking, but need to find time to talk with him and discuss my findings, and I also did a a 1 year 3 month 100% charge test. Or in other words, after 1 year and 3 months of being kept at 100% SOC, we shall see what the degradation (Loss of capacity) is in these two cells. The cells are from a P85 original Chemistry. Build time I believe early 2014. Results coming soon.

Looking forward to seeing the results. As best I can determine, my 85 has lost not quite 3% of original range at 92K miles and over four years. I don't think I'll be getting rid of it anytime soon--maybe never. (No contractor issues, no drivetrain issues.)

 

[wdolson]

My old MS 60 had a pack replaced at ~33,000 miles. Main contactor problem, just after the 1 year anniversary.
No degradation from that point until when traded in with over 80,000 miles on the ODO. That car had seen at MINIMUM 450+ supercharges, and a lot of very low close to zero, and very high close to 100% charges.

I knew the original battery had failed due to something in the pack and not the cells, but I couldn't remember what failed. I thought mentioning you in this thread might bring you in to clarify.

In comparison, my 90D, after one year and 33,000 miles, is down 20 miles of rated range. It's been babied in comparison to my old MS60. It's seen about 150 supercharges as of date.
Also, my 90D has gotten the Tesla Supercharging Speed limitation. When new, I could charge at ~115kW, now I'm limited at 94kW in best conditions. Range is not going back up.
Difference between the packs is Chemistry, the new packs have Silicone added to the Anode. My believe is that the original Chemistry was more robust, and the trade off in the new chemistry, is higher capacity with faster degradation.

The refreshed design has nothing to do with Chemistry, original "40's", 60's and 85's were original Chemistry. The Software limited 60's, 70's, 75's, 90's and 100's are the new chemistry. Not impressed to date.

On top of this, WK057 had sent me some cells to do a ton of benchmarking and testing on. I did the benchmarking, but need to find time to talk with him and discuss my findings, and I also did a a 1 year 3 month 100% charge test. Or in other words, after 1 year and 3 months of being kept at 100% SOC, we shall see what the degradation (Loss of capacity) is in these two cells. The cells are from a P85 original Chemistry. Build time I believe early 2014. Results coming soon.

Yes, the new chemistry came out in 2015. Silicon helps boost the capacity of a cell, but the silicon swells quite a bit when it absorbs a lithium ion. The old all graphite anodes don't swell when they absorb lithium ions, so the battery isn't subject to internal pressures.

My car is about 3-4 months newer than yours. I've only supercharged about a dozen times total. (We haven't been venturing very far from home lately, this year has been bad on the home front.) So far my degradation has been virtually nil. I've only charged to 100% a couple of times, but I have charged to 95 several times and charge to 90 the rest of the time. On delivery my 90% bounced between 268 and 269 miles. I still see 269 sometimes, but it's usually 268 and down to 266 or 267 if the car has been sitting for a couple of days. I frequently get rated miles or just below when running errands around town and I have a big hill climb at the end of my journey.

We don't have enough data to determine if fast charging is what's degraded the new chemistry or if it's just luck of the draw. I've been very fortunate.

 

[Jeff65]

Absolutely Not!!!!!

This car has had more problems in the 2 3/4 years I have owned it than all of my other high-end cars combined. Now the touch screen is dead and I have to make another trip to the SC. If it was out of warranty, this repair would cost $4000. Really bummed that I took a 5 year lease - would love to get back to a BMW.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Is the Model S a car for 10+ years?

Its already been over 5 years and folks still have theirs....so......

Answer = Obviously

 

[Viking1]

I went to kmanauto youtube to check his spreadsheet. He had 294 at 0 miles and 288 at 7K miles, 2% degradation (at 90% that would be 265 and 259). I record at 90%. At 7k miles I have 3% degradation (266 to 258). He did 7K in 14 weeks. I've done 7K in 28 weeks. So far tracking closely on rated range, mine is a bit worse. I'm going to start recording my 90% at 1000 mile intervals. I'm also thinking the new battery chemistry may have been a bad trade-off of energy density vs. degradation.

I'll be interested in the 100% charge results. When you think about it don't we all charge our phone to 100%? Not that the chemistry is the same. I'm guessing the 100% charge is not as bad as we've been told. Perhaps the phone companies, and Tesla, don't really stuff ever possible electron in those batteries?

 

[wdolson]

Phones batteries typically last a couple years. They usually don't tell you how long the charge will last so the decline is subjective. I did have a razor with a li-ion battery that reported minutes of shave time on a display. It started off around 60 minutes at 100%, but over 2 years of charging to 100% it degraded to a point where it was reporting about 17 minutes of time, but in reality it was less than 10.

I have another one in service now and I'm trying to keep from charging it to 100%, but the charger doesn't have any ability to stop it short, so I have to watch it.

Same thing with my cell phone, I try to take it off the charger when it gets up over 90%, but since there is no settings in the phone to set charge level, it often goes to 100% when I'm not looking.

 

[islandbayy]

Looking forward to seeing the results. As best I can determine, my 85 has lost not quite 3% of original range at 92K miles and over four years. I don't think I'll be getting rid of it anytime soon--maybe never. (No contractor issues, no drivetrain issues.)

thats not bad. Cant wait to get the results out. If anyone here can supply me with some of the new Silicon laced cells, PLEASE PM ME!

 

[islandbayy]

I went to kmanauto youtube to check his spreadsheet. He had 294 at 0 miles and 288 at 7K miles, 2% degradation (at 90% that would be 265 and 259). I record at 90%. At 7k miles I have 3% degradation (266 to 258). He did 7K in 14 weeks. I've done 7K in 28 weeks. So far tracking closely on rated range, mine is a bit worse. I'm going to start recording my 90% at 1000 mile intervals. I'm also thinking the new battery chemistry may have been a bad trade-off of energy density vs. degradation.

I'll be interested in the 100% charge results. When you think about it don't we all charge our phone to 100%? Not that the chemistry is the same. I'm guessing the 100% charge is not as bad as we've been told. Perhaps the phone companies, and Tesla, don't really stuff ever possible electron in those batteries?

Those video tests are up to 34,000 miles (Or at least they should be, cant remember if I uploaded the latest yet). The last 100% I did, couldn't get over 268ish (Off the top of my head).

I personally, would be a fan of going back to the original chemistry, but using more cells, such as like the new 100D cell arrangement. Should be able to hit a 90kWh pack and keep the awesome cell life from the first gen.

Just the fact we see tesla limiting the charge rate of the new chemistry packs for vehicles that have been DC Fast Charged "Too much", but not seeing that happening with the old chemistry already tells me tesla knows the new chem had a problem. And with a 8 year unlimited mileage warranty, and the ability to compare mileage and degradation to the older chem cars, I can see tesla needing to face some issues with "Premature Degradation".

 

[islandbayy]

Here is 34,000 on my 90D.

Oh, and to give opinion on if a Tesla is a 10 year car or not. Yes and No. Yes, I think my 90D will be around and kicking just fine after 10 years. No, I do not think my original MS60 would have lasted to 4 let alone 10. It would be a paper weight in my driveway right now.

 

[Viking1]

Thanks for your video and spreadsheet. I'll use that to benchmark the degradation on my MS 90D. I agree, I would rather have the "old" chemistry. Assuming that is the issue, it might also be pack/cooling design. Or it may be a combination of both, since as I understand it the 85 and 90 share the same # of batteries and pack design.

 

[Candleflame]

Sure it will be. But not much. As far I have seen until now the Model 3 seems to be just a few cm shorter than the S. Much more problems you get with the Model X... Parking fields are about 2,3 to 2,5m wide.. with a car that has 2,3m you will not be able to get in again if you are lucky. And if you are in the perfect parking house without mobile connections... be happy

But the Model S would fit. Not perfect at all, but it would fit most places around. The only bad thing on Tesla I see so far is the need to go backwards for charging. We have a lot of places here where this is no option. You would have to drive the wrong way through the one way to get the 270 degree turn.. all other cars have the connector in the front or the first half of the car.. Tesla not. But this points are things I can live with.
Just do not want a car that gets switched off by the producer to force me being a new one. But to be honest, in 8 years Tesla will not be the only company that delivers useable electric cars, so they will have to move on. All the great things the Model S had in 2012 are not longer that unique in 2020.
But actual, I am collecting informations, meanings and all the stuff I can get

I did laugh at this about 3 years ago when I saw a Model S for the first time. In the UK where roads and parking is even more tight than in Austria the Model S does not even fit in a standard parking spot lol. Slightly too wide and way too long.

 

[wdolson]

I did laugh at this about 3 years ago when I saw a Model S for the first time. In the UK where roads and parking is even more tight than in Austria the Model S does not even fit in a standard parking spot lol. Slightly too wide and way too long.

It is a car better suited to North America. With all the trucks and SUVs on the road, the Model S isn't that large.