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Is the Performance S a steal < 100K?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by joefee, May 11, 2012.

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Is the Performance S a steal <100K

  1. Yes

    50 vote(s)
    53.2%
  2. No

    44 vote(s)
    46.8%
  1. joefee

    joefee Over 2 Million TMC page views

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  2. ferrarimanf355

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    Can it run with a BMW M5?

    Does a bear poop in the woods?
     
  3. SigS905

    SigS905 Sig S 905 + X 5

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    At the Newport Beach Fashion Island event, I wandered around after visiting the Tesla event and ran into three Maseratti's on display. The low end was ~$140,000 with 0-60 in 5.8s, mid range was ~$180,000 with 0-60 in 5.2s and high end was $??? with 0-60 in 4.6s. Rear seat room was minimal at best.
     
  4. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Heck yeah. It just about matches my r8's performance and is tens of thousands cheaper and far more useful. It's a bit over the GTR, but again, far more useful and also attractive,
     
  5. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    And the bonus? All of those cars are poison to the environment.
     
  6. MarkR

    MarkR Member

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    I get the point that the price/performance ratio is excellent(and I wish that I could justify the cost), but the idea of a $90k "steal" is kinda goofy.
     
  7. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I think the "steal" is what you have to do to pay for it.
     
  8. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Everything is relative. Look at what Roadster sport owners paid (over a base 2.5) and the improvement they got. Now look at what a Model S buyer can pay (over a base 85kwh) and then look at the performance difference there. Still a chunk of change, but relatively speaking, a bargain for sure.
     
  9. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    A steal? I voted no. I do think it's well priced relative to the Model S cost overall though, which is a good sign. Tesla wants to be just under the typical buyer's price/value tipping point. Too high and they lose buyers, too low and they're giving up profit. The fact it's at that tipping point for me leads me to think it's well priced.

    Now, priorities and incomes vary of course, so my tipping point doesn't match that of others, but based on all the polls for income/age/etc, I seem to be pretty much dead center in the averages so I suspect I'm reasonably near the "typical buyer".
     
  10. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

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    12 more new cars worth waiting for - Yahoo! Autos

    ... I admit I was disappointed that the Model S wasn't in there. Kept thinking of things like "$60000, 5.9s 0-60, seats 4 and looks great. WTF do they want?" ... Oh, apparently they want it to be made by GM. :rolleyes:
     
  11. GSP

    GSP Member

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    A bunch of boring ICEs. I would not say that it is a GM oriented list however, just about all the ICE makers are on it.

    I liked the Corvette C7 best, least boring of the lot.

    GSP
     
  12. Johann Koeber

    Johann Koeber Member

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    Lets see what the final quality is in production.

    It is expensive, but it ought to be, considering how rare the car will be and how many innovations are included. Just wait and see the specs of the upcoming i3 by BMW, for example.
     
  13. Johann Koeber

    Johann Koeber Member

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    Is everbody aware of the Anagram TESLA STEAL ?
     
  14. PV4EV

    PV4EV Member

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    I live in the UK, and this place is a rip off for buying and running anything interesting with 4 wheels.

    However, I put together a sizeable spreadsheet of the likely running costs difference of a Model S Vs an equivalent luxury 'sports' sedan, and weighted up all the main costs.

    ICE examples typically would be a Maserati Quattroporte, 7 Series BMW, Merc AMG etc. I've owned something like 40+ cars over the years including some exotica and have been fleeced senseless by the likes of Ferrari, so I am painfully familiar with the real-world costs of running certain high-end cars.

    Below I summarise the various financial and numerical assumptions built into my spreadsheet, and the summary results.

    I accept that this works in UK, and is probably similar for most of Europe, and that running costs in the USA are significantly less primarily due to gas being 1/3rd the cost.



    ASSUMPTIONS:-

    EV to be a top spec Model S, 85kWh pack, energy usage averaging around 250 miles per charge, or about 340 watts / mile. Likely UK purchase price probably around £80k'ish.

    ICE to be a typical 4 door 'luxury' spec Italian or German sedan with 4 to 5 litre engine, doing an average of 18mpg. Likely purchase price around £80k'ish.



    • Costs based on 100,000 miles spread over a 10 term of ownership
    • RPI at 3% straight line, and applied to road tax, servicing costs and Feed-In-Tariff payments for Solar PV
    • Historical Fuel Inflation assumed at 6% straight line
    • EV Charging at night time electricity rates
    • 85kWh pack, needing 85kWh to charge not accounting for temperature
    • EV's have no road tax in UK, saving £5k+ over 10 yrs
    • ICE servicing (based on direct experiences) £1,500 p.a (at least ..)
    • EV needing minimal servicing of £500 pa / $800
    • PV option priced in at the generous 44p / kWh Feed-in-tariff rates, but only taken account of FITS for the cars usage.
    • there's some really amazing TAX benefits for running an EV as company car, equivalent to a 28% discount on the price, or about - £25,000 … !!!
    • no account of depreciation, insurance or tyre cost (assume for now it cancels out between ICE and EV)
    • If you commute into a city like London with congestion tax, there is an additional £20,000 charge loaded onto the ICE over the term (but not taken into account here as its getting messy)




    SUMMARY COSTS OVER 10YRS / 100K MILES …

    Basically, the ICE car will cost in total at least £160,000+ over the 10 yrs, including initial cost of car, and nearly £50,000 in petrol alone…




    Whereas the EV costs vary depending tax status, and if you have PV. Without PV the electricity charge costs will be approx £2,800.

    -> EV with no corp tax benefits, and no PV, total cost £98,000 over 10 yrs, including initial cost of car. Saving compared to ICE = £62k better off.

    -> EV with tax benefits/deductions, total cost £73,000, including cost of car. Saving = £ 87k better off.

    -> EV with tax benefits, AND PV payments, total is £56,000, including cost of car. Saving compared to ICE = £104k better off.



    So in other words, if you run a Model S over 10 yrs, through a company, and have PV on your roof, you'll be over £ 104,000 better off at the end of it, and still own the car...

    Plus you'll have a lot of fun, a green conscience and save masses of CO2 etc

    A saving of £104k is about $168,000 … If you invested your annual ICE/EV savings into Tesla stock, over 10 yrs, the results could just be staggering !
     
  15. Trnsl8r

    Trnsl8r Blue 85kwh since 12/8/12

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    I voted no. I'm not saying its overpriced or not worth it, but calling any car a "steal" because it's not in the six figures is ludicrous.

    My two cents, also <$100k btw...
     
  16. spatterso911

    spatterso911 MSP#7577 **--** MX#1891

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    Well, I don't read it so literally. I translate (excuse the pun) it to be a "steal" if it is cheaper, relative to comparable cars, based upon performance. It is the same as if you compared properties, education, insurance, and so on. So, I voted yes, because in comparison to the car I am replacing, and the car I would have bought instead of the Model S, it is substantially cheaper, while offering similar performance and satisfaction. Ask yourself this question, in replacing the Model S Performance, matching features, style, performance, is the car you end up buying going to be cheaper or more expensive?
     
  17. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I didn't vote because I think there needs to be a third choice in line with Trnsl8r's "Six figures. Whoa!"
     
  18. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Bargain is a better word. Yea it is. Just like the Roadster had the quickness of car costing twice as much and an all Carbon Fiber body. The next cheapest car with an all CF shell is $250K. Yes, a steal.
     
  19. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Hi from someone else in the UK who used the tax advantages on the purchase of a Roadster. (Led to a big fight woth the tax man but we won. I would factor tax investigation insurance into the cost base because they do not like paying back large amounts!)

    Impressive level of analysis, and I like the link to PV though some might argue that they are independent. I have a few questions:

    1. Did you take account of the planned changes in BIK tax in 2015 (after which the Benefit In Kind tax on a model S will jump from 0% to 15% ie same as the best petrol cars)?

    2. What is the scenario like now for someone getting PV today at 21 p FIT?

    3. Is the spreadsheet available?

    Thanks

    Andrew
     
  20. PV4EV

    PV4EV Member

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    I'm intrigued .. can you allude to what it was about? I know my accountant looked into claiming VAT back under very specific circumstances, and running the car as a 'research vehicle' which has some esoteric benefits.




    (1) nope, because the whole BIK mess is something of a black art (and I am no accountant) and I believe is of relatively marginal benefit when compared to the point I was trying to make that running an EV for 10 yrs is broadly speaking going to be far more beneficial when compared to an ICE car.

    Also, I personally expect to be able to use up all of corporation tax allowances before 2015.





    (2) The spreadsheet was put together last year with the original 44p kWh generation rate (for <4kWh rated systems) and didn’t take into account the cost of the PV installation etc. In the next 6 months that generation rate is reduced to 21p, and even less looking further out. But the installers have had to reduce their 400% margins to make PV still look like an attractive ROI proposition. Quality PV can be bought as low as 60p/watt at trade prices in the UK, which begs the question as to why are 4kwp systems are still being priced at £10k for 1.5days installation work …

    If the 21p rate is used instead of 44p, the overall 10 yr FITS benefit reduces from approx £17k to £8.5k, or a difference of £8.5k.




    (3) It’s a mess ! Its fairly simple to creat a similar one, but mine wasn’t really put together for presentation to other humans and I've often been accused as coming from another planet :)



    A more precise spreadsheet drawn up by an fully qualified bean counter could undoubtedly incorporate numerous other minor benefits or costs, such as writing down partial running costs and vehicle depreciation against gross profits; variations in RPI that would effect assumptions on PV benefits; and the gain to be had by investing the running costs savings .. and then the marginal tax on the gains etc etc etc !! I also did not add in the savings due to not having to paying congestions charges (which would be a huge £20,000 over 10yrs) or free EV parking fees.

    Bear in mind that my overall intention was to illustrate the scale of the financial benefits of running an EV for 10 yrs VS a similar spec ICE, and could easily be +/- 10% inaccurate over such a period.

    The bottom line is that by far the biggest cost savings to be had are from not buying petrol, not paying gas-guzzler road taxes and not being fleeced senseless by ICE maintenance dealers. Basically, no matter which way you look at it, running a $100k EV instead of a $100k ICE car … is a no-brainer over a 10 yr period !!!



    (even my accountant resorted to the term 'no-brainer', which is most unusual for him …)
     

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