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Is The Price Right?

JeffS

Member
Oct 7, 2015
239
48
Wisconsin
I really want to scoop up an 85D, where exactly did you look for one besides here/panjo?
There is no such thing as an 85D without AP (or at least AP hardware). So unless the current owner is wanting to upgrade to a P, then there is no reason to upgrade. Hence...there are virtually none on the market.

There are some AP 85s in the high 60s though.
 

Plan B

Active Member
May 8, 2015
4,862
2,235
Portland OR
I really want to scoop up an 85D, where exactly did you look for one besides here/panjo?

Go into your closest Tesla store and find a sales person that has been with Tesla for a while and ask them to search your specs for an inventory car, this is the only way to find cars that are not listed.

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There's several 90D's listed on Hanks site, why not snag one of them. Prices aren't bad and you still get the credit and more range.
 

davesm

Member
Dec 24, 2015
73
8
Massachusetts
Go into your closest Tesla store and find a sales person that has been with Tesla for a while and ask them to search your specs for an inventory car, this is the only way to find cars that are not listed..

I did this, but the prices were only slightly less than new. He said they just deduct a few $'s per mile. And given that most of them had options I didn't want, the prices were actually greater than new...


There's several 90D's listed on Hanks site, why not snag one of them. Prices aren't bad and you still get the credit and more range

What is Hanks site??
 

davesm

Member
Dec 24, 2015
73
8
Massachusetts
http://ev-cpo.com/
This one is in your area and has parking sensors, it might have AP.
85 kWh Performance Model S P51353 | Tesla Motors

Thanks for finding. The thing is, though, is that I can get a new 85D with all the options I want for $85K after incentives. And this one doesn't have dual motors, so the comparable new car price is $80K compared to $83.5K for the used one... (the used car does have lots of features I don't want to pay for, but those simply don't factor in for me)

The least expensive car on that site with autopilot also suffers from similar math. Other than autopilot, it's pretty barebones, so if I compare to a similarly configured new car, I'd only be saving $3K for having to get a used car with different colors and options than what we'd choose.

I don't mind getting used and sacrificing some options we want (other than autopilot) if there were a good discount for doing so, but it just seems that when taking options and tax incentives into account, there's almost no discount for getting used (at least for cars that have autopilot)!
 

Electricfan

Active Member
Aug 24, 2013
1,250
283
Houston
Exactly... Still deciding if I want to make the moves to get a new one (taking a MASSIVE hit on depreciation, placing about $30K down and getting another loan). I just don't know if autopilot and the other improvements are ultimately worth it.

I did what you're contemplating and I wish I hadn't. Autopilot only works if the road is well-marked, sun isn't shining in your path, road doesn't curve sharply, and on and on. I wish I'd waited for 2.0. And don't buy 2.0 until you've driven it. Current auto-pilot requires you to basically drive the car - keep hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any time. NOT WORTH IT.
keepHANDS.jpg
 

Plan B

Active Member
May 8, 2015
4,862
2,235
Portland OR
Thanks for finding. The thing is, though, is that I can get a new 85D with all the options I want for $85K after incentives. And this one doesn't have dual motors, so the comparable new car price is $80K compared to $83.5K for the used one... (the used car does have lots of features I don't want to pay for, but those simply don't factor in for me)

The least expensive car on that site with autopilot also suffers from similar math. Other than autopilot, it's pretty barebones, so if I compare to a similarly configured new car, I'd only be saving $3K for having to get a used car with different colors and options than what we'd choose.

I don't mind getting used and sacrificing some options we want (other than autopilot) if there were a good discount for doing so, but it just seems that when taking options and tax incentives into account, there's almost no discount for getting used (at least for cars that have autopilot)!

That link was not directed to you, it was quoted to someone else.
 

luvnMyTS

Member
Jan 6, 2015
340
203
Los Angeles, CA
Tesla offered me $52,000 for my 2013 S85 with 19,000 miles and an original price of $99,000. $64,500 seems pretty on par. They paid my dad $62,500 for his 2014 S85, $98,000 price new. Again, you price is on par. Your car is 2 1/2 years old. Tesla's buyback guarantee is 50% of the base price + 43% of your options. At $64,500, you're still well above that with only 6 months to go until your car is 3 years old. It's a car, it depreciates at a significant rate. Tesla's cost anywhere from $22,000 to $35,000 PER YEAR to own, based on three year ownership and depending on how expensive of a model your car is. More expensive, more deprecation. Kelly Blue Book values a 1 year old P85D ($125,000 car new) at $78,000. Nearly $50,000 loss in just one year!

Tesla's are great, but they're still a high end car that doesn't hold its value worth a damn, just like most other high end, mass produced cars.
 

Mike K

Member
May 15, 2013
849
833
Los Angeles
How does one find such a good deal (e.g. S85 w/AP for $65K)?? I haven't found anything close to that. After reviewing the inventory models available at the Tesla dealer, and the CPO website, I couldn't find any options that saved anything at all compared to a new model 85D ($85K after tax credits), especially when taking options into account (I only want to pay for AP, subzero, air suspension and rear seats)...

One uses his craigslist scouring software to pull ads in from all over the country, checks eBay, Autotrader, the forums here and everywhere else you can think. One pits one seller against another, even if the other seller and the other don't exist. One is patient, practical, not emotional, ready to buy immediately and willing to travel.

People are afraid to ask for better deals. I think the car I got down to $65,000 was asking $72,000. Being in my business I've learned that most people will take the sure money now versus maybe getting 10% more later. So it's all about making the seller feel confident that if the numbers work you're willing to buy right then.

And indeed, I agreed to a price on my car and picked it up that day. A month later I agreed to a price on another car and hopped on a flight 2 days later.

You're not going to stumble onto these deals though so most people don't think they exist. You just need to hustle a bit which I find fun. The thrill is on the hunt.
 

tanner

Active Member
Nov 17, 2013
1,118
286
SoCal
I did what you're contemplating and I wish I hadn't. Autopilot only works if the road is well-marked, sun isn't shining in your path, road doesn't curve sharply, and on and on. I wish I'd waited for 2.0. And don't buy 2.0 until you've driven it. Current auto-pilot requires you to basically drive the car - keep hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any time. NOT WORTH IT.
View attachment 105976
thats what I was afraid of... I heard it's getting better though and with the latest release, it's much more functional? Also, a sales rep told me they need to learn how to drive in most situations by the driver before AP is actually usable.
 

davesm

Member
Dec 24, 2015
73
8
Massachusetts
One uses his craigslist scouring software to pull ads in from all over the country, checks eBay, Autotrader, the forums here and everywhere else you can think.

So the key is finding a private seller that is not advertising their car on the forums here (as the prices here are inline with the CPO prices)? Hard to believe that someone would sell their Tesla on craigslist or ebay without taking advantage of every Tesla forum to advertise it, but I know anything is possible. Then the question is how much it's worth it to spend the time searching and negotiating and the money traveling and to take the risk on an unknown private seller. As you mention, I suppose it matters how much one enjoys doing that!
 

JeffS

Member
Oct 7, 2015
239
48
Wisconsin
So the key is finding a private seller that is not advertising their car on the forums here (as the prices here are inline with the CPO prices)? Hard to believe that someone would sell their Tesla on craigslist or ebay without taking advantage of every Tesla forum to advertise it, but I know anything is possible. Then the question is how much it's worth it to spend the time searching and negotiating and the money traveling and to take the risk on an unknown private seller. As you mention, I suppose it matters how much one enjoys doing that!
Happens all the time. I purchased mine from a Chevrolet dealer. They are all over the place out there. If you buy from CPO or in this forum, you are limiting yourself to transactions between enthusiasts of the highest level.

You can be sure of one thing...you cannot pay more than when dealing between ultra-enthusiasts.

There are lots of Tesla owners that don't participate here. I would even say...the vast vast majority of them are not here.

Couple of tricks from my search...
Look for pictures in the listing with leaves on the trees. Or photos showing 6.x firmware on the dash. Those cars have been for sale a long time.

When buying from non Enthusiast types, you have to do all the work. If that's OK by you, then go save some money.
 

Mike K

Member
May 15, 2013
849
833
Los Angeles
So the key is finding a private seller that is not advertising their car on the forums here (as the prices here are inline with the CPO prices)? Hard to believe that someone would sell their Tesla on craigslist or ebay without taking advantage of every Tesla forum to advertise it, but I know anything is possible. Then the question is how much it's worth it to spend the time searching and negotiating and the money traveling and to take the risk on an unknown private seller. As you mention, I suppose it matters how much one enjoys doing that!

To be honest, the last place I'd look for a car is on this forum. The worst deals are on forums because forums are where the enthusiasts are and enthusiasts generally have a tenuous grasp of the term market value, at least when it comes to their own stuff. Of the cars I've bought I don't think a single one has come from a forum and I've owned a lot of cars, all of them used.

And with respect to an "unknown private seller"... What private seller is known? I mean everyone is a stranger to you. Just because they have a screen name here doesn't mean they're somehow vetted and guaranteed to be an honest person.

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Happens all the time. I purchased mine from a Chevrolet dealer. They are all over the place out there. If you buy from CPO or in this forum, you are limiting yourself to transactions between enthusiasts of the highest level.

You can be sure of one thing...you cannot pay more than when dealing between ultra-enthusiasts.

There are lots of Tesla owners that don't participate here. I would even say...the vast vast majority of them are not here.

Couple of tricks from my search...
Look for pictures in the listing with leaves on the trees. Or photos showing 6.x firmware on the dash. Those cars have been for sale a long time.

When buying from non Enthusiast types, you have to do all the work. If that's OK by you, then go save some money.

Yes, all of this. And you learn pretty quickly what to look for. When I first started looking it shocked me that probably 50% of the ads had no mention of battery size or had the wrong battery size listed. People didn't mention things like the Ultra High Fidelity stereo, tech package, etc. So eventually I learned to look for the subwoofer in the trunk, an N or P in the 8th digit of the VIN for an 85kwh car and other visual cues.

The best cars to offer on were the ones with the least information because lazy people will skip right over those cars instead of asking questions. So when you offer on those you can be pretty confident in the fact that the person hasn't received much interest. There were people with AP cars that made no mention of it. I had to look for the sensors.
 

JeffS

Member
Oct 7, 2015
239
48
Wisconsin
∆∆yep...all of that too. In addition to wrong battery sizes...you will see a lot of ads for P85s that are actually 85s. They are clicking selections in NADA, and naturally select "Performance" because...its a Tesla...so...yeah...performance. They have no idea its a $10,000 option that is missing on the car.

One friend who purchased shortly after I purchased, found a used car specialty dealer in Chicago area that thought it would be cool to sell a Tesla. They bought one at auction, overpaid horribly, and had no way to charge it other than 110v.

Friend went in with $59k cash, explained what the car was, which options it had (and didn't have), walked the seller through an accurate NADA valuation. Dealer was pissed they made a bad buy.

Took a day. Dealer called back and countered way too high. My friend countered back his original offer and informed the dealer of vampire drain and if they didn't install some charging equipment, in 45 days that car will be a brick due to a dead battery.

They took his offer. He now proudly owns a P23xxx 2013 S 85 nicely appointed with 18,000 miles. Dealer washed out with a $5,000 loss and a lesson learned.

It can be done. Old inventory at dealers that don't know the first thing about the car...
 

tomas

Out of warranty...
Oct 22, 2012
4,278
3,879
Chicago/Montecito
Wow, this thread is full of unrealistic expectations! You cannot include sales tax when figuring depreciation, and you also have to take out EV incentives. So while my p85 was out the door at 104, I really only had about 85 in it. So if I sold it today for 56, I'm down about 33% for 3 years. That is not unusual for luxury cars. And if I sold or traded it to tesla, they would lowball me like every dealer. And, if I sold it to them at say 50 and wanted to buy it back in a week, they'd have it at 58 or so. Profit making business. None of this unique to tesla. Personally, I bought to keep for 10 years or more. People who swap in and out for new features are just going to take big hits. Fact of life!!!
 

Mike K

Member
May 15, 2013
849
833
Los Angeles
Not everyone is willing to learn.

2013 Tesla Model S - On Sale Now! - Mint Condition Runs PERFECT!

This dealer has had this car since at least July asking $60,000. I tried to offer on it three different times, each time going in telling them it was a cash deal, each time very clearly showing them that their price was the same price Tesla was asking for CPO cars that had been fully checked and had a better warranty. They balked and basically wouldn't budge on the price. It's a buy here, pay here lot. Nobody is going in there to buy a Tesla and they had a buyer (me) come in three times with a cash offer that was very fair ($52,000 the first time up to $55,000 the last time I offered).

I finally gave up and a couple weeks later the prices dropped out. I bought my fully optioned car with 13,000 less miles for $8,000 less and their car with that mileage is probably worth $50,000 right now, likely less. Some people don't know when to cut their losses. They'd rather hold on to an asset so they don't have to realize the loss, not understanding that they're losing more than they would have otherwise. In this case they're likely going to get 48kish for that when they could have had 55k and free'd that money up months ago.

But I'm not complaining. It all worked fine for me. The businessman in me aches for them though and to their credit they were always nice when they told me to go pound sand. :D
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,613
7,941
Seattle area, WA
Not everyone is willing to learn.

2013 Tesla Model S - On Sale Now! - Mint Condition Runs PERFECT!

This dealer has had this car since at least July asking $60,000. I tried to offer on it three different times, each time going in telling them it was a cash deal, each time very clearly showing them that their price was the same price Tesla was asking for CPO cars that had been fully checked and had a better warranty. They balked and basically wouldn't budge on the price. It's a buy here, pay here lot. Nobody is going in there to buy a Tesla and they had a buyer (me) come in three times with a cash offer that was very fair ($52,000 the first time up to $55,000 the last time I offered).

I finally gave up and a couple weeks later the prices dropped out. I bought my fully optioned car with 13,000 less miles for $8,000 less and their car with that mileage is probably worth $50,000 right now, likely less. Some people don't know when to cut their losses. They'd rather hold on to an asset so they don't have to realize the loss, not understanding that they're losing more than they would have otherwise. In this case they're likely going to get 48kish for that when they could have had 55k and free'd that money up months ago.

But I'm not complaining. It all worked fine for me. The businessman in me aches for them though and to their credit they were always nice when they told me to go pound sand. :D

Have you considered that someone maybe driving it and doesn't want to sell it? Few months ago I was looking at an S60 listed above MSRP at a local ICE dealer. I drove by and asked why they were asking so much, one sales guy told me a sales manager was driving the Model S and he wasn't really willing to discount the car. They did have it listed as a "Performance" too, but pictures clearly showed a 60 badge.
 

pulmcc

Member
Aug 29, 2013
14
0
Marietta, GA
Yes, but due to my obsessive nature, now I'm wondering if AP 2.0 or some other massive advancement would just make the new car plummet in price/resale value too.

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Insultingly enough, Tesla's CPO department offered me $54k...

Your trade in value seems really low. I just traded in my 2013 85 with just over 46K miles on it. I think the total build price was around 90K. Got between 45-46K for the trade in. The reason I traded now was I knew that I would only continue to lose value if I waited any longer. I basically had to decide between keeping the car forever or upgrade now. I chose the latter.
 

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