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Is this battery performance normal?

cafz

Member
Jul 17, 2020
510
486
Australia
Well my sticker said 448km and I only get 200km.
You said "a little over 200 at 80%", so that's actually a little over 250.

The US build SR+ for me reliably does 300 for me (100%) in good weather on 110km/h freeways without much net gain or loss in altitude (eg the Pacific Hwy).
 

paulp

Active Member
Jul 23, 2015
3,076
1,515
Adelaide, Australia
Well my sticker said 448km and I only get 200km.

In the same manner that telcos have to report their average internet speeds in the evening, I think EV companies should be required to report their real world average range. With the sort of information they collect they can even report these numbers in the local geography for even better accuracy.
Have you tried driving like a grandma, turning off all aircon and seat heating, sticking to flat roads and not going too fast. Acceleration should be 0-100 in minutes, not seconds. Oh and no passengers or luggage.
 
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Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,300
1,784
QLD, Australia
Well my sticker said 448km and I only get 200km.

In the same manner that telcos have to report their average internet speeds in the evening, I think EV companies should be required to report their real world average range. With the sort of information they collect they can even report these numbers in the local geography for even better accuracy.

Yeah i get what you mean. I also returned my BMW in Germany because I only got 200km range on the autobahn driving at 250km/h.. even though it said it was only using 9L extraurban!!!!

There is no such thing as real world average range. I drive 140km/h on the motorway in Australia. The limit is 110km/h. So my real world is different to other peoples real world including your grandma who drives 70km/h in the overtaking lane.

If you only get 200km then I suggest you slow down. Or get a bigger battery model. Not to mention that you are gonna get hit with 10% degradation in the next couple of years.
 

M3OZ

Member
Oct 16, 2020
27
30
Australia
Yeah i get what you mean. I also returned my BMW in Germany because I only got 200km range on the autobahn driving at 250km/h.. even though it said it was only using 9L extraurban!!!!

There is no such thing as real world average range. I drive 140km/h on the motorway in Australia. The limit is 110km/h. So my real world is different to other peoples real world including your grandma who drives 70km/h in the overtaking lane.

If you only get 200km then I suggest you slow down. Or get a bigger battery model. Not to mention that you are gonna get hit with 10% degradation in the next couple of years.
Of course, there are real world averages. Doing 140km/h in 110km/h is what outliers do (and hopefully get fined for) and then get suppressed mathematically by average drivers who struggle do get more than an average of 40km/h on urban roads. Averages and standard deviations are useful mathematical concepts. Unrealistic claims are not.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,300
1,784
QLD, Australia
Of course, there are real world averages. Doing 140km/h in 110km/h is what outliers do (and hopefully get fined for) and then get suppressed mathematically by average drivers who struggle do get more than an average of 40km/h on urban roads. Averages and standard deviations are useful mathematical concepts. Unrealistic claims are not.

if you drive 110km/h you wont just get 200km. your claim is unrealistic. You must be driving faster. Naughty. Remember, every km over 110 is a killer. Unless you cross the border to the NT. Then it is either 130km/h or unlimited, depending on whether labour or liberals are in power 131kmh is a killer or its not. And ignore the sign at Charters Towers which says fatigue is the biggest killer. liars.
 
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M3OZ

Member
Oct 16, 2020
27
30
Australia
You said "a little over 200 at 80%", so that's actually a little over 250.

The US build SR+ for me reliably does 300 for me (100%) in good weather on 110km/h freeways without much net gain or loss in altitude (eg the Pacific Hwy).
hmm not sure if that is true. 80% is the recommended level of charge. The regenerative braking gets disabled beyond that threshold, so it is questionable if you actually get a linear boost out of a 100% charge. Regardless, going from 448 to 250 is still a large gap.

I also, take exception to the fact that Tesla recommends charging to 80% under normal (most?) circumstances but then quotes on 100% charge. No problem with quoting theoretical maximums for comparison purposes as long as practical figures are also included.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,300
1,784
QLD, Australia
hmm not sure if that is true. 80% is the recommended level of charge. The regenerative braking gets disabled beyond that threshold, so it is questionable if you actually get a linear boost out of a 100% charge. Regardless, going from 448 to 250 is still a large gap.

I also, take exception to the fact that Tesla recommends charging to 80% under normal (most?) circumstances but then quotes on 100% charge. No problem with quoting theoretical maximums for comparison purposes as long as practical figures are also included.

Tesla doesnt recommend charging to 80%. They recommend charging to 90% on older Model 3s and 100% on iron battery Model 3s. Or 100% if you are roadtripping on the older Model 3s.
 

M3OZ

Member
Oct 16, 2020
27
30
Australia
Tesla doesnt recommend charging to 80%. They recommend charging to 90% on older Model 3s and 100% on iron battery Model 3s. Or 100% if you are roadtripping on the older Model 3s.
They do. I quote:

"
What percentage should I charge the battery to?
Adjust the charge percentage of the battery in the settings menu on your touchscreen. For most Tesla owners, 80% charge is sufficient for regular daily use. We recommend setting higher charging limits only for long distance travel.
"

 

meloccom

Moderator Aus/NZ
Supporting Member
Feb 11, 2008
2,431
1,382
Sydney Australia
hmm not sure if that is true. 80% is the recommended level of charge. The regenerative braking gets disabled beyond that threshold, so it is questionable if you actually get a linear boost out of a 100% charge. Regardless, going from 448 to 250 is still a large gap.

I also, take exception to the fact that Tesla recommends charging to 80% under normal (most?) circumstances but then quotes on 100% charge. No problem with quoting theoretical maximums for comparison purposes as long as practical figures are also included.
Tesla recommend not to charge to 100%, to maximise the life of your battery.
Most owners drive short distances normally and only need the extra range when on long trips when it’s perfectly acceptable to charge to 100%.
Almost every EV manufacturer recommends the same for their vehicles and Tesla is not unique in this regard.
In fact it’s good practice to charge your Tesla overnight from a low level to 100% every couple of months so the car can better balance the battery and measure it’s capacity for its range calculations.
 
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Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,300
1,784
QLD, Australia
They do. I quote:

"
What percentage should I charge the battery to?
Adjust the charge percentage of the battery in the settings menu on your touchscreen. For most Tesla owners, 80% charge is sufficient for regular daily use. We recommend setting higher charging limits only for long distance travel.
"


interesting. thats new.

Either way for the new MIC SR+s cars the recommendation is to charge to 100% frequently due to BMS being unable to estimate the SOC otherwise. Many people keep them at 100% every day.
 

Hairyman

Member
Jul 24, 2019
777
414
Australia
interesting. thats new.

Either way for the new MIC SR+s cars the recommendation is to charge to 100% frequently due to BMS being unable to estimate the SOC otherwise. Many people keep them at 100% every day.
I think the recommendation for the MIC SR+ is because they are using LiFePO batteries and that chemistry performs better under those conditions
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,300
1,784
QLD, Australia
I think the recommendation for the MIC SR+ is because they are using LiFePO batteries and that chemistry performs better under those conditions

yes indeed. but this is the future imho. the real advantage isn't that they can be charged to 100% all the time but that apparently they have little to no degradation.

My car already has less range at 90% than an SR+ at 100%.
 

cafz

Member
Jul 17, 2020
510
486
Australia
hmm not sure if that is true. 80% is the recommended level of charge. The regenerative braking gets disabled beyond that threshold, so it is questionable if you actually get a linear boost out of a 100% charge. Regardless, going from 448 to 250 is still a large gap.

The regenerative braking does not get disabled beyond 80% in the general case. It gets progressively reduced depending on both SOC and battery temperature. In my experience (Fremont SR+) at normal temperatures it doesn't get significantly reduced until you get beyond 95% SOC.
I also, take exception to the fact that Tesla recommends charging to 80% under normal (most?) circumstances but then quotes on 100% charge. No problem with quoting theoretical maximums for comparison purposes as long as practical figures are also included.
The maximum range is only really relevant when going on long distance trips, where you'll charge to 100% if you need it.

I don't think there's one set of "practical" figures you can have. It's so dependent on the lengths of the trips you do, the speeds of the roads, the terrain, the weather, climate control settings, the driving style... for example you'll notice that the average Wh/km figures that Queensland owners get are significantly (~20%) better than Victorians. What I always recommend to people who are considering buying the car and asking about range is to use ABRP and plug in some particular drives that they are planning to do, to see a pretty good estimate of the consumption for the trips they care about.
 

louco73

Member
Oct 19, 2019
51
59
Gold Coast
Just an idea... How about someone with the same car specifications offers to do a range test with @M3OZ? Charge to 100% and use the same HVAC settings, tyre pressures, etc. They can even take turns at the lead to average out any impact on following another car.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,300
1,784
QLD, Australia
Bit of off topic here.. so it’s ok to charge to 100% regularly for a MIC SR+?

you should charge it regularly to 100% (maybe 1-3x a week or so depending on how much you drive).

The iron batteries dont really experience the same battery stress when running hot (where heat equals battery stress which is also created by being at 100% or 0%) or range loss for that matter.
They have a different voltage curve to normal lithium ion which means that the BMS cannot read the SOC unless they are above 95% or below 5%.
The downside is poor performance when cold or even just warm.

Tesla clearly doesnt seem to mind for them to be charged to 100%. In the app/car the slider doesnt have day (90%) or trip (100%) charge, its just 100%.

Caused a huge issue with the initial Model 3s in Germany which had their range go from 40% to 0% in a few minutes or them still supercharging with 60kw at 98%.
The BMS calibration now works much better but they definetely have to be charged to 100% often.


How much less degradation will they have sitting at 100% for a year or 80% for a year compared to lets say the traditional lithium ion sitting at 90% for a year? Only time will tell. Rumour has it they experience hardly any degradation and like to be run hot at 45C all the time with poor cold performance.
 

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saveforests

Member
Sep 12, 2019
6
1
Como
This is all very interesting indeed. My 3SR+ delivered Nov 2019 initially claimed to have 320km of range (at 80%). Now it is down to 262 km. I always charge the car to 80%, probably once to 90% and the car has never been supercharged. I also only use 15A charger. It will be interesting to see what other's readings like. I have been wondering whether to check with Tesla Australia or not, it seems that they can do it remotely from one of the reply here. So I guess I will try it soon.
 

OzVic

Member
Jun 20, 2019
170
210
Australia
This is all very interesting indeed. My 3SR+ delivered Nov 2019 initially claimed to have 320km of range (at 80%). Now it is down to 262 km. I always charge the car to 80%, probably once to 90% and the car has never been supercharged. I also only use 15A charger. It will be interesting to see what other's readings like. I have been wondering whether to check with Tesla Australia or not, it seems that they can do it remotely from one of the reply here. So I guess I will try it soon.

I get the vibe your car's BMS may have lost track of your minimum and maximum voltages. Run it low, say to 5% or less and leave for a short while. Then charge it high, ie. 95+. Your BMS should then learn the new range.

It may also be due to winter and your battery is cold. Thus it estimates less.
 

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