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Is this normal range loss within a single drive?

Discussion in 'Model 3: Battery & Charging' started by Mikedrives, Jan 1, 2020.

  1. Mikedrives

    Mikedrives Member

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    Model 3 SR+, built April, 2019. Driving flat roads from Illinois to Indiana, 40º F, cabin temp @ 68º F, no significant wind, no traffic, driving 55- 70mph.

    Used 150 miles of range to go 105 miles.

    Does that seem normal? This is pretty much how it goes all the time. These weren't ideal conditions, but it's not much better even in the best circumstances.
     
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  2. eye.surgeon

    eye.surgeon Active Member

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    yes. It will be better in the summer. It would be more informative to know what watt hrs per mile you averaged.

    The real question is, did you have sufficient range for your trip? If so then who cares how much you used vs ideal. Electricity is cheap, you lost 45 miles and it cost you probably a dollar.
     
  3. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    Yes. Your Wh/mi was about:

    209Wh/rmi*150rmi/105mi = 299Wh/mi

    Bring your usage down to around 209Wh/mi to have mile-per-rated-mile rolloff. You’ll need to turn off the heat and drive below 45mph or so. And make sure it is flat.
     
  4. Matsayz

    Matsayz Active Member

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    Yes that’s normal. The battery needs to keep an optimal temp so it uses power to heat itself. During winter/cold times expect to lose 20-30% if not more range. Also, don’t think of miles needed to travel as what you’re going to use, that’s not how that works just like it’s not how that works in a gas vehicle.

    And please try to search and read the stickied topics about things at the top of the page like the one that speaks about what you’re asking.

    MASTER THREAD: Winter charging issues, frozen charge ports, road trips
     
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  5. mswlogo

    mswlogo Well-Known Member

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    The loss is not battery heating. 90% is the cabin heater, speed etc.

    Drive in EPA conditions at 40F (no HVAC, 55 mph, etc.) and you'll probably do better than EPA.
     
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  6. Matsayz

    Matsayz Active Member

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    Really appreciate you down voting me for posting facts. There’s obviously more than a few factors going into the range loss. Who are these people that magically drive around not using any HVAC and 55MPH on the highway....? The question was, is this loss normal and yes it is.
     
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  7. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    #7 AlanSubie4Life, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    The “fact” in question here is the impact that battery heating has on range. I think it’s probably pretty small relative to other factors.

    It’s not clear to me that the Model 3 actually actively heats the battery in chilly conditions (not frigid). The OP was at 40 degrees. We know that when the battery preconditioning kicks in for supercharging it makes noise from the motor. No such noise is present in chilly conditions (40 degrees). At most, the vehicle is simply routing warm coolant from the motor to the battery, which requires minimal energy. My understanding is there is no actual additional heat being generated except during preconditioning. But happy to see data showing otherwise (and the associated wattage). The battery needs to be warm for charging without damage - not nearly as important for discharging.

    Of course, you are right in general that factors such as higher internal battery resistance, denser air, deflated tires, limited regen, all impact winter range. But I suspect battery heating and even these other factors are small relative to the impact of speed and HVAC use in this case.

    And yes, agreed that this is normal.
     
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  8. mswlogo

    mswlogo Well-Known Member

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    You said it was caused by battery heating, it's NOT !!! I'm saying it's the HVAC and driving 70 MPH etc.

    Did I say his loss wasn't normal. No. I disagreed with your reason as being "Battery Heating" it is not.
     
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  9. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    And this is an important point because HVAC use and speed are actually in the user’s control if they need it. Also tire inflation. And that could (at great inconvenience) bring usage down to near the rated level.
     
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  10. ewoodrick

    ewoodrick Well-Known Member

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    Count on 30% range loss in cooler temps.
    All EVs do this. Even cellphones that get cold
     
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  11. SoManyM3s

    SoManyM3s Member

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    Ummm, that’s not normal honestly. I used about 150 range going 120 miles from Charlotte to Durham averaging 70 miles an hour (driving 65-75mph) my Wh/mile was 255 in same temperature. My tire pressure was 45. I have a LR. I had no passengers. No barely any wind (possible there was some tail wind). To be fair. I do draft with follow distance 1. My follow distance without AP is about a 1 normally anyways.
    I was not using hvac. There was no need at 65-70 F
     
  12. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    #12 AlanSubie4Life, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    It is normal, really...and the above is a key difference in addition to the huge temperature difference.

    If he had driven the EXACT same drive as you at 255Wh/mi, he would have used:

    223/209 * 150rmi. = 160 rated miles (not your 150 rated miles). To travel 120. So that is part one.

    But he did 299Wh/mi - but he was using the heat!!! At 40 degrees outside that is a steady state 3kW or so. At 70mph that is 3kW/70mph = 43Wh/mi

    255Wh/mi + 43Wh/mi = 298Wh/mi

    QED? ;)

    If he had done the same distance drive you did at 299Wh/mi, he would have used 172 rated miles.

    Also by my calculations you should have used closer to 140 rated miles, not 150. Obviously pretty common to be a bit higher in reality with time spent in park and prewarming the cabin.

    255Wh/mi/223Wh/rmi*120mi = 137 rated miles.
     
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  13. garth_angst

    garth_angst Member

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    I get tired is seeing this generalization.
    I pay 19.5 cents per KwH, which is WAY above the national average, so it is NOT cheap. There are probably at least 50 different rates in the USA, most of them are cheap, but some of them are not.
     
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  14. mswlogo

    mswlogo Well-Known Member

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    I do too. I pay $0.26 / kWh and SuperChargers are $0.32 / kWh.

    It is worth understanding how to best optimize your car and understand the trade offs, it's not just about your wallet either.
     
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  15. postersw

    postersw Member

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    I usually figure 70% efficiency at this time of year. 70% of 150 = 105, so you are right on the mark.

    (You will learn over time that the energy consumption is very sensitive to temperature, heat/AC use, speed, and elevation gain).
     
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  16. coconutboy84

    coconutboy84 Member

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    yup sounds right
     
  17. mswlogo

    mswlogo Well-Known Member

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    One point I like to make for potential new buyers is, it's gonna feel worse on a SR than an LR.

    Folks need to realize between not really having access to 100% of the battery in practice.
    And how Cold weather can eat away at your range you want as much range as you can afford.

    With only 240 miles of range on an SR you take 80% of that because you never go to 0% SOC nor do you usually charge to 100%.
    So now you are at 80% of 240 which is 192 miles.
    Now in winter (where it truly gets cold) take ~70% of that and now you are down to 134 miles of range.

    And that doesn't even factor in further degradation or bad weather.
     
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  18. Tummy

    Tummy Member

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    This is our efficiency of our 3 at various temperatures over the last ~20k miles. So 105 miles/.717= 146 miles of range used. In line with what you are seeing.

    2B1AA904-EC5E-41B8-8E5C-58E090DB78F9.jpeg
     
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  19. KenC

    KenC Active Member

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    40F outside, 68F inside, <70mph, flat, no wind, seems excessive to me. Was there snow on the ground? Do you have snow tires on? What are your tire pressures? Are you sure there was no wind? If it were me, with those specs, I'd have expected something like 125 miles of range used for 105 miles. Anyhow, you've had your car since April, so you should have a fairly good idea of your efficiency and whether something seems out of line.
     
  20. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Efficiency Obsessed Member

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    #20 AlanSubie4Life, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    The OP should report his actual Wh/mi and report the rated miles used only while driving (not starting from before he started warming the car for departure and ending when he remembered to check a few hours after arrival), if he wants help making sense of things. To me it seems normal - 299Wh/mi (which is apparently what he got) seems completely conceivable at 70mph in the winter. Achieving 250Wh/mi with the heat on, at 55-70mph, seems like a stretch. But I have an incredibly inefficient 3P+ I suppose.
     
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