Is this unusual to have to replace the rear drive unit and rear calipers at 95K miles on a model S (2013)? And is it a reasonable cost?

[jsatre]

Job Number Description Of Work Amount (USD)
1
Concern: Customer states: Drivability - Car won’t start
Correction: General Diagnosis
Correction: Battery - Auxiliary - 12V - 1st Generation (RHD RWD) (Remove & Replace)
Price
195.00
Price
48.75
Adjustment
0.00
Adjustment
0.00
Price Adjustment
Subtotal
195.00
Subtotal
48.75
Subtotal
165.00
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity
BATTERY, 12V, DCS33- 1.00 UNCR, MS --PRE- REFRESH(1083774-00-
B)
Correction: Drive Unit - Rear - Large (Includes Alignment Check) (Remove & Replace)
Unit Price
165.00
165.00 0.00
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity
Unit Price
NUT HFPT M12x1.75 [10]-ZnNi(2007063-00-B) NUT, M10X1.50MM(2007059-00-B)
ASY,P-TRAIN,RMN,MDLS,BASE,CMC,HS,FA2+ (1025276-00-Q)
BOLT HF M8X30 PC109 ADH MAT(1008722-00- A)
SCR,M8- 1.25X18,HEX,STL,ZN,PTCH,W/WSHRS(1004405-
2.00 0.28 0.56 2.00 2.16 4.32 1.00 4,800.00 4,800.00
1.00 0.70 0.70 2.00 0.34 0.68
0.00 0.56 0.00 4.32 0.00 4,800.00
0.00 0.70 0.00 0.68
Price
604.50
Parts Subtotal 165.00 Adjustment Subtotal
0.00 604.50
Price Adjustment Subtotal
8,237.75
1 of 4

00-A)
Correction: Knuckle - Suspension - Rear - RH (Remove & Replace)
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity Unit Price
RR SUSP KNUCKLE 1.00 465.00 RH(6007024-00-B)
Correction: Brake Caliper - Rear - LH - Brembo (Remove & Replace)
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity Unit Price
BOLT,TE,M12-1.75x45, 2.00 0.59 [109],G0110,SMAT.
(1088969-00-B)
Price Adjustment
370.50 0.00
Price Adjustment
465.00 0.00
Subtotal
370.50
Subtotal
465.00
RR BRAKE CALIPER ASSY LEFT HAND(6006434-00-B)
1.00 440.00
1.18 0.00 440.00 0.00
Correction: Brake Caliper - Rear - RH - Brembo (Remove & Replace)
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity Unit Price
BOLT,TE,M12-1.75x45, 2.00 0.59 [109],G0110,SMAT.
(1088969-00-B)
Price
156.00
Adjustment
0.00
Price Adjustment
Subtotal
156.00
Subtotal
1.18 440.00
RR BRAKE CALIPER ASSY RH(6006438-00- B)
1.00 440.00
1.18 0.00 440.00 0.00
Correction: Link - Suspension - Rear - Upper - RH (Remove & Replace)
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity Unit Price
Price
156.00
Adjustment
0.00
Price Adjustment
Subtotal
156.00
Subtotal
2.38 230.00
BOLT HF M12X75 PC109(1043053-00-A)
RR UPPER LINK ASSY(1027421-00-E)
Total Parts Amount 6,551.00 Total Labor Amount 1,686.75
1.00 2.38 1.00 230.00
2.38 0.00 230.00 0.00
Price
156.00
Adjustment
0.00
Price Adjustment
Subtotal
156.00
Subtotal
1.18 440.00
Parts Subtotal 4,806.26
Parts Subtotal 465.00
Parts Subtotal 441.18
Parts Subtotal 441.18
Parts Subtotal 232.38
Pay Type: Customer Pay
2 of 4

Service Center hourly rate: USD 195
All parts are new unless otherwise specified.
You agree that: Tesla is not responsible for any personal items left in your vehicle; Tesla and its employees may access and operate your vehicle including on streets, highways, or public roadways for the sole purpose of testing and/or inspection of repairs; Tesla may update your vehicle’s software in the course of a repair or as part of the standard vehicle maintenance process per your owner’s manual and New Vehicle Limited Warranty; Tesla and its employees may access, download and use the information stored on your vehicle’s data recorder to service and diagnose issues with your vehicle, and Tesla may store and aggregate such data for its own purposes; an express mechanic’s lien is hereby acknowledged on your vehicle to secure the amount of repairs, storage and other applicable fees; the vehicle owner’s insurance provides exclusive coverage for the vehicle while it is in Tesla’s possession; and you may be charged storage fees of $35/day from the fourth working day after you are notified that repairs on your vehicle are complete and that the vehicle is ready for pick up.
Total Parts (USD) Total Labor (USD)
Discount
Subtotal (USD)
Tax
Total Amount (USD)
6,551.00 1,686.75
0.00
8,237.75
393.05
8,630.80

 

[tesdpr]

A 2013 MB S class (or even E class) would most likely have had at LEAST that amount..in SERVICE A and SERVICE B charges...alone, over a 9 year period. Nevermind repairs.

But isn't the point of owning the Tesla to have lower total cost of repairs? I don't think everyone who is buying Tesla is buying coming from a bmw or mb where yes maintenance costs can be 40% added to cost of car over 10 Years. Why compare the Tesla to those? Isn't the better comparison to an accord? The entire point of Tesla being born from Elon's team's vision was to build an AFFORDABLE EV for TCO not simply upfront costs. Upfront costs may be higher but his idea was to have lower costs of maintenance and no gas to offset. That should mean in 10 years my Tesla should have a TCO somewhere slightly higher than a comparably equipped high end accord.

Tesla is deviating from this vision - and perhaps profits are now more important than market share - with 70k for a MYLR that was supposed to be 45-50k. Charging $195 for labor? You know when I was in the SC the other day I saw 5 guys sitting chatting - in service all Tesla employees and techs - doing nothing for 3 hours. That's why we pay $195. Third party shops are $89 an hour max and BMW dealers are $129 - I thought Tesla was only passing service at cost?

 

[Hank42]

Yeah but maaany people that don’t understand cars hear “EV no maintenance” and then don’t do *anything*

Well, what would people do? It IS an EV and there is very little to no preventive maintenance to be performed.

Most failures are failures due to assembly problems/poor QA on parts. A few are just poor design that catches up over time.
Other failures, like headlights, MCU, door handles etc, fall into that category.

Things I can think of that you can do:
Checking your wipers for wear+replacing
Checking your brake fluid(the car will warn you)
Checking your tire pressure(the car will warn you)
Check your oil to prevent engine failure.. Oh wait, it's an EV NM
Check your ATF to prevent transmission failure.. Oh wait, it's an EV NM
Check your Exhaust system for leaks to prevent CO poisining/poor engine performance..Oh wait, it's an EV NM
Check your Coolant levels to prevent engine overheating and damage and related neighborhood cat poisoning..Oh wait, it's an EV NM
Check your Belts to prevent power steering failure/engine damage.. Oh wait, it's an EV NM
Change your timing belts every 60K to prevent engine failure..Oh wait, it's an EV NM
Change your water pump every 60K to prevent engine failure..Oh wait, it's an EV NM

Other failures are just part of driving _any_ car IRL.

The only preventative thing I can think of that an owner can do to prevent bigger $$ down the line is checking the tires for wear+ replacing/bring to service for root cause and possible $$ repair.

What's on your list of "things to do" as an EV owner to prevent costly repairs/extend the life of your car? (aside from wrap it in bubble wrap and leave it in the garage and never, ever, drive it)

I think it is a good idea to flush brake fluid every 2-4 years as it has a tendency to absorb moisture and become contaminated. And proactively changing brake pads every 5 year(sooner if you are depending on your localities use of salt and other road treatments)despite how much "meat" is left on them as they can experience "dry rot" from lack of use due to regen. So in regards to that, yeah, similar to an ICE, but nowhere near as maintenance greedy as an ICE.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

Well, what would people do? It IS an EV and there is very little to no preventive maintenance to be performed.

My point was more on the line of: in an ICE car, yes there's expected maintenance - and at those service intervals, you generally have the opportunity to have the car generally inspected for preventative maintenance. Suspension, Brakes, Fluids, fault codes, out of sight damage etc. With Tesla, the vibe is "nothing is necessary," so you get folks that wear things down to the absolute end of life, because they don't know any better.

There's minimal preventative maintenance on the battery, sure - but all the normal stuff still needs to get checked, and I know of folks with 5+ year old cars that haven't had anything checked since it left the delivery truck.

 

[Hank42]

My point was more on the line of: in an ICE car, yes there's expected maintenance - and at those service intervals, you generally have the opportunity to have the car generally inspected for preventative maintenance. Suspension, Brakes, Fluids, fault codes, out of sight damage etc. With Tesla, the vibe is "nothing is necessary," so you get folks that wear things down to the absolute end of life, because they don't know any better.

There's minimal preventative maintenance on the battery, sure - but all the normal stuff still needs to get checked, and I know of folks with 5+ year old cars that haven't had anything checked since it left the delivery truck.

Good point. It's Tesla's "marketing" I suppose - just like "Autopilot" is not really Autopilot, but people treat it that way.

 

[dark cloud]

Well, what would people do? It IS an EV and there is very little to no preventive maintenance to be performed.

Check your Coolant levels to prevent engine overheating and damage and related neighborhood cat poisoning..Oh wait, it's an EV NM

We now know that checking the coolant level should be part of annual maintenance. If the level is down with no leaks present it probably went into the drive unit. The speed sensor is the best place to check this. According to the drive unit experts if found early it should save the owner several thousand bucks.

 

[howardc64]

We now know that checking the coolant level should be part of annual maintenance. If the level is down with no leaks present it probably went into the drive unit. The speed sensor is the best place to check this. According to the drive unit experts if found early it should save the owner several thousand bucks.

Its interesting Tesla never issued a TSB to SCs for this maintenance check that we know of

My LDU rebuild effort found just about every seal maker have been contacted by Tesla/suppliers every couple of years in the last 10 years and all have participated in some kind of "make a seal that don't leak" contest

 

[dark cloud]

Its interesting Tesla never issued a TSB to SCs for this maintenance check that we know of

My LDU rebuild effort found just about every seal maker have been contacted by Tesla/suppliers every couple of years in the last 10 years and all have participated in some kind of "make a seal that don't leak" contest

Right? They can fly a rocket into space, bring it back and land it with the precision analogous to landing a baseball from 100 yards on a thimble, but a seal that last longer than a year? Impossible!

 

[vcor]

I guess you get a bit better design work when you pay $67M for 10-minute use (single rocket launch) vs. $80K for a car! I couldn't find the actual cost of the rocket, but likely in the $300M range.

 

[howardc64]

I guess you get a bit better design work when you pay $67M for 10-minute use (single rocket launch) vs. $80K for a car! I couldn't find the actual cost of the rocket, but likely in the $300M range.

I think NASA overwatch has a lot to do with it as well. Remember when Elon wanted to propulsively land the astronauts back on land @ terminal velocity at hundreds of feet above hard ground? History says

1. NASA has dead astronaut cross to bear
2. Russians don't tell anyone
3. Elon has 1 to burn

On Tesla, we are eager consumers with disposable income so mostly in case 3?

 

[Jsvette56]

I had 2 DUs replaced on my 2013 Model S in a two year period due to increasing noise. Both done under warrantee.

 

[Jsvette56]

I had two DUs replaced under warrantee on my 2013 Model S. Both due to noise.

 

[maximizese]

We had the original DU replaced at 90K miles on our 11/13 built S85. Coincidentally I had a low coolant warning come on at 60K miles (SC checked into it), whirring noise started at around 70K miles, and intermittent "Vehicle may not restart" warning started about 8 months before the car failed to start (failed at the SC parking lot). Two weeks later the new drive unit was noticeably quiet and smoother than the original. The SC also replaced the HV contactors, pyro fuse, 12V battery and HVAC drain hose with drive unit under warranty.

Edit: It makes me wonder if there's any sense in doing a preemptive seal replacement at ~60K-90K miles just like what is common on ICE vehicles with timing belts, water pumps, thermostats, or rear main seal. I'd much rather spend a few hours replacing a seal than replacing the entire drive unit.

 

[howardc64]

Having done the DU rebuild DIY, here is a summary

- Tesla seems to have switched to a more failure prone seal. Almost every early Model S got a couple of DUs replaced under warranty to address early design issues. Unfortunately, we inherited this new issue. Most of the later installed DUs have weak seal. No idea when changed etc. But we see weak seal on most DIYers fixing DU leaks.
- Leak doesn't seem mileage dependent, seems more time dependent.
- After leak starts (maybe couple of years with these weaker seals) then maybe another couple of years before collateral destruction show up (motor bearings, motor stator windings, inverter electronics)

This is a must annual maintenance check item for RWD Model S. Pay for the inspection if can't DIY (kind of a bear jacking up this car) Directions are in one of the website links in my signature.

But I suppose for the non DIYer, what can one do since every DU installed by Tesla will have this problem. No answer unfortunately. The only preventive is to remove the DU, add a weeping hole so the leak can exit rather than accumulate (every water pump has a weeping hole for reference, all seals leak so need to avoid accumulating it for collateral damage). adding weeping hole should reduce collateral damage.

Hope this helps.

 

[howardc64]

We had the original DU replaced at 90K miles on our 11/13 built S85. Coincidentally I had a low coolant warning come on at 60K miles (SC checked into it), whirring noise started at around 70K miles, and intermittent "Vehicle may not restart" warning started about 8 months before the car failed to start (failed at the SC parking lot). Two weeks later the new drive unit was noticeably quiet and smoother than the original. The SC also replaced the HV contactors, pyro fuse, 12V battery and HVAC drain hose with drive unit under warranty.

Edit: It makes me wonder if there's any sense in doing a preemptive seal replacement at ~60K-90K miles just like what is common on ICE vehicles with timing belts, water pumps, thermostats, or rear main seal. I'd much rather spend a few hours replacing a seal than replacing the entire drive unit.

Read here for annual maintenance inspection requirement on this

Howards Model S - Problem Areas

Super Expensive Area (~$10k to $20k+) Large Drive Unit for RWD cars Tesla kept on changing this. In the early days, Model S owners would wave to each other in passing. The running joke was the number of fingers held up is the number of LDU that has been changed. I got 3rd LDU by 40k miles which

sites.google.com

 

[howardc64]

We had the original DU replaced at 90K miles on our 11/13 built S85. Coincidentally I had a low coolant warning come on at 60K miles (SC checked into it), whirring noise started at around 70K miles, and intermittent "Vehicle may not restart" warning started about 8 months before the car failed to start (failed at the SC parking lot). Two weeks later the new drive unit was noticeably quiet and smoother than the original. The SC also replaced the HV contactors, pyro fuse, 12V battery and HVAC drain hose with drive unit under warranty.

Edit: It makes me wonder if there's any sense in doing a preemptive seal replacement at ~60K-90K miles just like what is common on ICE vehicles with timing belts, water pumps, thermostats, or rear main seal. I'd much rather spend a few hours replacing a seal than replacing the entire drive unit.

Sorry for multiple replies, wish I can edit TMC post after 1 hour.

In your car's case, probably had the original better seal in original DUs. Likely started leaking at 40-50k miles at the latest. Maybe 20-30k. 60k lost enough to low coolant warning. 70k bearing got trashed. 70-90k was trashing inverter electronics and motor stator windings. Very destructive.

My impression on the newer weaker seal is all this happens faster. Maybe 2 year start leaking, 4 year to when collateral damage becomes noticeable (bearing noise, electronics errors)

 

[Thomas Allen]

I just had my drive unit replaced in the final month of the 8 year warranty. Obviously, I’d prefer to not replace it with out of pocket money in the future. I understand that checking the speed sensor regularly for leaking coolant is important. My question is what can I do if traces of coolant is found? It doesn’t appear that any of the EV shops that typically work on Tesla’s do anything but total drive unit replacement. If that’s the case, why bother checking the speed sensor? Just drive the car until it stops running.

 

[howardc64]

I just had my drive unit replaced in the final month of the 8 year warranty. Obviously, I’d prefer to not replace it with out of pocket money in the future. I understand that checking the speed sensor regularly for leaking coolant is important. My question is what can I do if traces of coolant is found? It doesn’t appear that any of the EV shops that typically work on Tesla’s do anything but total drive unit replacement. If that’s the case, why bother checking the speed sensor? Just drive the car until it stops running.

Having just done this rebuild. Tesla only needed to do 2 small things to probably severely diminish the collateral damage from the leak

1. Drill a tiny weep hole at the low spot in dry chamber behind the coolant seal like all water pumps. All seals leak tiny amounts over time. So vacate the leak rathe than let it collect and cause collateral damage. In case of LDU, collateral damage is HV electronics/motor along with a couple of expensive bearings.
2. Seal off the vent hole in the speed sensor cavity

This is the basic mods DIY rebuilders are doing and QC Charge (QCC) doing lots of these LDU rebuilds. Some like QCC do more mods but these 2 steps are the 2 key ones. Even if leaks, these 2 mods likely can allow you to run for awhile (not sure how long yet) before any collateral damage.

Both mods are "almost!" doable without removing the LDU but not quite...

#1 drilling will put some small amount of drilled metal debris inside the dry chamber. Electric motor rotor shaft spins at 6k RPM at 60mph in this chamber so need to remove the metal debris which unfortunately requires complete subframe and LDU removal. Maybe some machinist knows how to drill without producing metal shavings at the drill bit tip?

#2 is probably doable with speed sensor out and carefully clean around the vent hole and close it with JB Weld. #2 requires #1 to be done since the weep hole is the new vent for this chamber.

Only the coolant manifold need to be removed to do #1. Its really unfortunately the subframe wraps around and prevent it from coming out without pulling the subframe and LDU.

If someone pioneers how to do these 2 mods with LDU in the car... then it would be possible to do this preventive mod on a lot of cars.

Anyway, if catch speed sensor wetness early, then little to no collateral damage would have been done. Then its a simpler rebuild but subframe and LDU does have to come out.

The leak has to be caught early before significant collateral damage. How early is early? Don't know. If enough leaked coolant accumulates in the dry chamber behind it, then a bigger rebuild job.

Perhaps 1x/mo is sufficient (so need to learn how to check super efficiently) longer might be okay but basically taking more risk.

Here is my write up to do the speed sensor check super efficiently. I can probably do it in < 1/2 hour now. Been doing it 1x/week to monitor the newly installed seal for signs of leak.

Sign in - Google Accounts

Hope this helps. The earlier you catch the leak the better. And hopefully more indys will take on this service as more LDUs come off 8 year warranty. My calculation suggest > 100k LDUs off warranty by end of 2023. I'm guessing Tesla is doing 50+ LDU replacements worldwide daily.

One challenge for indys is if collateral damage gets more significant like damaging the inverter electronics. Then it turns into salvage parts acquisition which isn't as scalable as off the shelf available parts. Tesla doesn't majority of the LDU parts.

 

[dark cloud]

I just had my drive unit replaced in the final month of the 8 year warranty. Obviously, I’d prefer to not replace it with out of pocket money in the future. I understand that checking the speed sensor regularly for leaking coolant is important. My question is what can I do if traces of coolant is found? It doesn’t appear that any of the EV shops that typically work on Tesla’s do anything but total drive unit replacement. If that’s the case, why bother checking the speed sensor? Just drive the car until it stops running.

To add some dollars to what howardc64 mentioned above, Short term, if all of the LDU's had the drain kit installed from QC for ~2k, then if it leaks the owner only has to shell out another ~5K to have it rebuilt. If the leak has gone on long enough to cause more major damage then the owner possibly is looking at ~8K for a replacement LDU, plus a tow.

Looking long term, like 20 years in the future, it would be nice if there were still an abundant supply of good core LDU's available for QC to still rebuild. My fear is that If every owner allows the car to drive until the drive unit shorts out and causes a fault which doesn't allow the car to roll, the majority of the LDU's would probably be so severely corroded none of it would be salvageable; it would be beyond the point of rebuilding, and if Tesla does stops producing the units or inverters for the units then what? They may have stopped producing these parts already (?) The first thing that would happen is the price of rebuilt LDU's would skyrocket due to lack of supply, and then mechanics/shops would have to figure out how to retrofit a different drive unit into the vehicle, and hack the software to allow it, which would not be easy. So please repair it before the issue becomes catastrophic. Perhaps @ajbessinger could add something or confirm these numbers.

 

[Thomas Allen]

It would be great if more independent EV shops would respond to the need for these modifications. They are well beyond the capability of most owners.