It's December 29 - how much will supercharging cost?

[bob_p]

On November 7, Tesla announced cars ordered after January 1 (or delivered after April 1) will no longer have unlimited free long distance charging, and would be charged a fee after the first 400 kWh each year - and that details of the program would be provided "later this year".

It's December 29, and other than statements about idle charger fees, which may or may not be charged if there are empty stalls (no details on that either), we haven't had any other information.

For potential owners that intend to do long road trips, the supercharger fees will be another price increase, on top of the other price increases over the last few months.

Should Tesla push back the order deadline to provide a reasonable amount of time after they've announced the details on the new fees, so that owners have an opportunity to decide whether or not they want to purchase before or after the unlimited free long distance charging goes away?

And should Tesla remove the April 1 deadline? For cars ordered before December 31 (or a new deadline, if they delay that due to the delay in announcing the program details), it shouldn't matter how long it takes for Tesla to deliver the car - because that's controlled by Tesla - and not by the new owner.

 

[hingisfan]

I'm guessing the per minute will be the same as the idle fee

 

[Flying Drummer]

And should Tesla remove the April 1 deadline? For cars ordered before December 31 (or a new deadline, if they delay that due to the delay in announcing the program details), it shouldn't matter how long it takes for Tesla to deliver the car - because that's controlled by Tesla - and not by the new owner.

Per my OA, cards ordered before Jan 1 will have free unlimited supercharging if delivered after April 1 and the delay is caused by Tesla (and not changes to the order, requested delay, or other action on the owner's part)

 

[TexasEV]

If you're concerned, order now. Whatever Tesla announces about the supercharger fees will be subject to change over time, and you're likely to have the car for many years.

On the other hand, supercharger fees (if only using supercharger for long distance travel) are trivial compared to the car and will be less than gasoline.

 

[Kcharwood]

I'm guessing the per minute will be the same as the idle fee

No way. That would make it comparable to filling up an ICE.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I'm guessing the per minute will be the same as the idle fee

No way. That would make it comparable to filling up an ICE.

It also takes much longer than an ICE to refill/recharge...and often requires a route that is much longer since Superchargers aren't always on the most direct route.

To encourage use of sustainable transportation, I would think that the fee would have to be way less than what an ICE costs.

 

[Boourns]

It may have to vary by location, depending on whether Tesla (or whoever is providing the energy) is OK losing money on it.

 

[ggielen]

I think the free supercharging has a very much overstated value, except for some specific use cases (taxis, *very* frequent long distance travelers etc). For the 95% of people who will use this car as they do their car today, they'll leave in the morning with an 80-100% full battery, and come home with most of that left 'in the tank'. They will just charge at home since it is simply the most convenient charging option, and the cost is tiny. And if you need to use a supercharger, residential electric is about $0.20/kwh (generation + transmission cost), if you do need to, you can probably fill up a P100D for ~$20. I doubt the rate Tesla will charge will be much different from what residential power costs. There may be a slight service fee in there to help pay for the supercharger stations but I doubt it'll be a profit center, but Tesla will likely also get cheaper rates from utilities as a big consumer. If the rate is similar as residential, why would anyone charge at a supercharger instead of at home -unless- out of range or 'speed of charging' necessity?

I think the value associated with free supercharging is largely emotional, because the word 'free' is so powerful. The real economic value, is not that much. That said, I did order an S60 last month, partially because the free supercharging deadline. Not because I attach so much value to it myself, but because I think it'll help with resale value since others will attach inflated value to it. And it was just one more argument to convince myself that I should by a Tesla

 

[bswn1]

I think the free supercharging has a very much overstated value, except for some specific use cases (taxis, *very* frequent long distance travelers etc). For the 95% of people who will use this car as they do their car today, they'll leave in the morning with an 80-100% full battery, and come home with most of that left 'in the tank'. They will just charge at home since it is simply the most convenient charging option, and the cost is tiny. And if you need to use a supercharger, residential electric is about $0.20/kwh (generation + transmission cost), if you do need to, you can probably fill up a P100D for ~$20. I doubt the rate Tesla will charge will be much different from what residential power costs. There may be a slight service fee in there to help pay for the supercharger stations but I doubt it'll be a profit center, but Tesla will likely also get cheaper rates from utilities as a big consumer. If the rate is similar as residential, why would anyone charge at a supercharger instead of at home -unless- out of range or 'speed of charging' necessity?

I think the value associated with free supercharging is largely emotional, because the word 'free' is so powerful. The real economic value, is not that much. That said, I did order an S60 last month, partially because the free supercharging deadline. Not because I attach so much value to it myself, but because I think it'll help with resale value since others will attach inflated value to it. And it was just one more argument to convince myself that I should by a Tesla

I somewhat disagree. We take twice a year half country trips in ours and would blow through the 400kwh allowance in one trip. This now makes our trips less viable than before where the only cost was our hotels and food.

 

[jsmay311]

It certainly does seem odd that it hasn't been announced yet.

I somewhat disagree. We take twice a year half country trips in ours and would blow through the 400kwh allowance in one trip. This now makes our trips less viable than before where the only cost was our hotels and food.

I think the point is, the actual value provided to the average owner from "free" supercharging is very small, especially relative to the purchase price. No one buys a $100,000 Tesla (or $70k or $130k or whatever) because it'll save them $100-$200 on fuel for a twice-per-year road trip.

Tesla said "there will be a small fee to Supercharge which will be charged incrementally and cost less than the price of filling up a comparable gas car". So depending on what the "comparable" gas mpg is, and the price of gas at the time/place, we're probably talking $0.20/kWh or less.

So let's say $0.20/kWh, a 2000 mile trip, and 0.38kWh/mile... that'd be $152. (Or less if you leave home with a full charge and/or return home near empty).
Not too bad for 2000 miles, right?

 

[ggielen]

I somewhat disagree. We take twice a year half country trips in ours and would blow through the 400kwh allowance in one trip. This now makes our trips less viable than before where the only cost was our hotels and food.

Let's do the math: if I assume that means approximately 1000kwh per trip, and that twice a year (~1500 miles +/- = half country, at ~3mi/kwh = 500kwh, plus return trip = 1000kwh per trip, times twice per year = 2000kwh). 2000kwh at residential rate of approx $0.20/kwh = $400. Technically I could deduct the first 200 miles (twice) since you'd get that from your home charge before you left. But that doesn't change the supercharger math enough to change my conclusions, first order approximation, and you'd have to pay for it anyway on your electric bill, so let's not bother.

I could deduct 400kwh free charging, and now your total would be 1600kwh = $320. But you might need sporadic use of superchargers here and there, outside of your cross country trips, so I don't think that's a completely reasonable deduction to assess the trip cost. So let's stick with $400.

I agree that it is non-trivial for your use case. Not accounting for capital expense, probably still beats the alternatives (pay for gas or fly + rent a car locally), but agreed, non-trivial. Accounting for capital expense... well let's just not, because almost no one would buy a Model S on purely economic grounds . I concur with you on the trip cost. Probably not enough to say no to the entire trip, but less money left for other things.

I think the following would be an interesting piece of data: Tesla knows exactly how many miles have been driven with its fleet. If we just apply a simple average kwh/mile consumption to that number, we know how many kwh the entire fleet has used (Exhibit A), Tesla may know that number also from direct measurement, in which case, even better. Tesla presumably also knows exactly how many kwh have been charged at superchargers (Exhibit B). Divide Exhibit B by Exhibit A, and we know the ratio of supercharging vs other means of charging, and can assess its relative importance. If we do that for say, only 2016 (in 3 days from now when we have the full data set) then we can easily assess the annual cost to the average user.

 

[ggielen]

I think the point is, no one buys a $100,000 Tesla (or $70k or $130k or whatever) because it'll save them $100-$200 on fuel for a twice-per-year road trip. The actual value provided to the average owner is very small, especially relative to the purchase price.

Exactly. For economics, get a cheap ICE car. Aside from capital cost, the insurance alone, and in my case in CT the property tax as well, represents way more annual value/cost than the free supercharger. For every other good reason (environment, stimulating technology, sheer coolness), get a Tesla!

Don't want to contest though that for the example use case, the trip cost is not insignificant with non-free superchargers. The total cost of ownership is another discussion.

 

[bswn1]

It certainly does seem odd that it hasn't been announced yet.



I think the point is, the actual value provided to the average owner from "free" supercharging is very small, especially relative to the purchase price. No one buys a $100,000 Tesla (or $70k or $130k or whatever) because it'll save them $100-$200 on fuel for a twice-per-year road trip.

Tesla said "there will be a small fee to Supercharge which will be charged incrementally and cost less than the price of filling up a comparable gas car". So depending on what the "comparable" gas mpg is, and the price of gas at the time/place, we're probably talking $0.20/kWh or less.

So let's say $0.20/kWh, a 2000 mile trip, and 0.38kWh/mile... that'd be $152. (Or less if you leave home with a full charge and/or return home near empty).
Not too bad for 2000 miles, right?

I'm not looking at it purely from an economic stand point. I purchased a $100k car, obviously I can afford the trip. The point of my post is that the Supercharger fee will affect my use case. The prevailing thought is it's nbd, but it definitely affects some users... I'd be looking at $1,000 a year in Suoercharger fees which is substantial.

I ordered before the cut off so all of the above is hypothetical.

 

[Sonny Daze]

It certainly does seem odd that it hasn't been announced yet.

The first new cars that will have to pay won't be delivered until March/April and then they will have to burn through their 400 free kWh. However, inventory and CPOs purchased after 1 Jan may start getting charged earlier (depending on how they are handled and how much they use superchargers). Still some time, but why wait?

 

[Jack007]

The first new cars that will have to pay won't be delivered until March/April and then they will have to burn through their 400 free kWh. However, inventory (and possibly CPOs) purchased after 1 Jan would start getting charged earlier (depending on how much they used superchargers). Still some time, but why wait?

Well since he said it was going to be based on local electric rates, it's kinda hard to say what the chargers are going to cost since it's all DIFFERENT...

 

[Sonny Daze]

Well since he said it was going to be based on local electric rates, it's kinda hard to say what the chargers are going to cost since it's all DIFFERENT...

Are they going to charge by time (min, 5 min, 1/2 hour), by kWh (exact amount, blocks of 10, 50, 100). Can we buy blocks of these in advance?

 

[dgpcolorado]

Are they going to charge by time (min, 5 min, 1/2 hour), by kWh (exact amount, blocks of 10, 50, 100). Can we buy blocks of these in advance?

Based on the Tesla website changes that were revealed several months ago, my impression was that they would charge in blocks of 100 kWh and refill the block as needed from the credit card on file. Charging by the minute strikes me as unfair because my car charges much more slowly than the larger battery cars. Whether charging by kWh will run into problems in states where entities other than utilities aren't allowed to sell electricity remains to be seen. Nevertheless, I don't expect a per minute charge, save for the previously announced idle fee. We shall see...

 

[PDFS]

I normally drive just over 100 miles per day. There are about 2 days a month that I drive over 300 miles in a day and it is all local, (I am never more than 90 miles from my home). On those days I SC. I decided when I bought the car that I probably would not drive this car on cross country vacations because I do not want to sit and wait while I SC. It amazes me at the comments about the cost of SC. Figure out the time you spend sitting at a SC and compare that to your hourly wage rate and you are probably ahead to rent a car for those long trips and work the time you would spend in a SC or fly.

On those days I am using a SC I am working from my car while I SC or taking a nap. Both activities are profitable in my mind.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Y'all worry to much. My boat barely breaks 2 MPG.

 

[brkaus]

Pricing will have to be at or higher than charging at home to be sustainable.