TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

It's NOT 'zero-sum'!!

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by nwdiver, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    7,187
    Location:
    United States
    This is the key point that protectionists and nationalists miss when they support tariffs and oppose immigrants. This isn't a zero sum game.

     
  2. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    10,082
    Location:
    Maine
    The video seems to emphasize _knowledge_, and argues for greater global distribution of wealth in order to increase global levels of education, in order to increase human productivity.

    Knowledge can be spread without importing goods and labor. See protectionism in Chinese car manufacturing.
     
  3. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    7,187
    Location:
    United States
    You need a vibrant economy to promote education => knowledge. There are winners and losers in free trade but the losers are temporary and the winners are permanent.
     
  4. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    10,082
    Location:
    Maine
    China has a vibrant economy with massive protectionist measures and relatively little immigration.
    Japan was also successful without much immigration.
     
  5. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    7,187
    Location:
    United States
    #5 nwdiver, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
    Depends on how you define 'success'.

    Screen Shot 2018-03-18 at 4.20.43 PM.png

    It's the aggregate. The point is that more open borders and free trade leads to far better aggregate results globally than tariffs and restricted immigration.

    If a trade deficit of $25B creates $30B in economic activity that's a net win. The real creation of wealth is making the pie bigger. Not keeping more of it for yourself. Immigration makes the pie bigger. Tariffs make it smaller.
     
  6. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    10,082
    Location:
    Maine
    #6 ItsNotAboutTheMoney, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
    Japan is an economy that depends on exports. It has been overwhelmed by the Chinese juggernaut. But note that Japan became wealthy _without_ immigration.

    I'll repeat that China is very much a protectionist nation and has limited immigration. There's no K1 equivalent (long-term permits for persons married to Chinese do not allow the spouse to work), permanent residence permits are only available to high-level talent and there's extremely restricted naturalization.

    Despite the restrictions, China has grown rapidly. Significant immigration is not necessary for growth. What's (currently) required is _labor_. Developed nations have low birth rates that have led to a reduction in the workforce. Western developed nations have used immigration to fill the shortage. What would the world do if all nations were developed with low birth rates?

    You seem to be arguing that those who are protectionist or who support immigration control do not want to see economic growth in other countries and simply want to hold on to current wealth. I do not believe that that is true. I'm certain that people would be happy to keep what they have and see others gain. The key concern is being dragged down by competition with low wages and poor working conditions.

    While you use the video to for free trade and free movement of labor, it could equally be used it to argue for debt relief and foreign aid.

    _Knowledge and technology_ are what increases productivity.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC