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Discussion in 'Battery Discussion' started by vfx, May 15, 2008.
Will Imported Oil Give Way to Imported Batteries?
"dependence on imported batteries"
Are there any potential hardline battery exporting nations??? And anyway, what's stopping the US building up it's own manufacturing base. Again?
That's true, but I think what one of the commenters mentioned is true too, that the battery pack is more like an engine, a part that isn't replaced for the car's lifecycle. Electricity is the fuel. Foreign made batteries are as much a threat to national security as foreign made consumer goods; these things we could always build at home if the situation calls for it, but for resources like oil we really have no choice. Yes it's probably bad for the job market in the US, but it doesn't directly related to security, esp since the countries they listed as primary battery producing nations are Japan and Germany, both strong allies to us.
Don't forget the need for basic raw materials.
A switch to Lithium could require imports from different countries
Lithium Resources Ample for the Next Big Thing. | Green Energy News
Lets hope we end up with energy storage from a variety of different materials.
Don't forget lithium batteries are recyclable. Thats a major improvement on oil that you can only burn once.
Lithium is the 33rd most common element in the Earth's crust. There are significant deposits of lithium bearing minerals in South Dakota, North Carolina, and California...
Another alternative is a fresh approach to lead-acid batteries http://www.fireflyenergy.com/
Their technology is using carbon fiber mats to replace the support grids for the electrodes. This allows higher power densities for a given battery size, as well as improved charging times, higher energy densities and longer battery life.
Nice little primer on battery technology and who is using what today:
Market for Electric Vehicle Batteries Is Heating Up - Seeking Alpha
I just took this photo comparing 18650 cells (from a flashlight) to more common AA, C and D sizes.
Is that like a bad joke that the Li-Ions are called "UltraFire" with a logo of a burning fire?!
Thanks, for that. I figure people often make that comparison primarily because the aspect ratio is so similar to that of AAs.
Someone else worried about lithium:
Swapping Peak Oil for Peak Lithium? - Future of Lithium Auto Batteries | Hybrid Cars
Does anyone know where we can find a timeline of the dominant battery chemistries are?
Or at least give a rough estimate?
History of the Electric Battery
Battery History, Technology, Applications and Development
RadioShack's On-line Battery Guidebook: Battery Timeline
Bill Arnett (Tesla Customer) posted this photos of a real Tesla 18650 next to consumer cells:
Based on the pattern on the positive terminal of the battery, I am guessing Sanyo...
What do the Matsushita cells look like?
The guy from Asahi Shimbun asked me for my best guess as which supplier Tesla uses, and I pulled Matsushita out of my err... hat. I said likely Sanyo or Matsu, but ultimately came down on the side of Panny for no particular reason.
I've just noticed something interesting...
Panasonic Industrial Europe GmbH
Panasonic Lithium Ion Batteries
max out at 2550mAh, yet
Cylindrical type | Lithium Ion Batteries | Batteries, Power supplies | Panasonic Industrial Solutions Global
lists 2900. Are they not available in the US and EU?
EDIT: A bit of further digging seems to indicate that the 2900mAh are only available to corporate buyers. Some Asus eePC battery packs are reckoned to use them.
The photo evidence makes a good case for Sanyo, it seems.
Panasonic seem to prefer the "It" symbol instead of C Rate, which
Looks like it's the same value.
They seem to recommend 0.7 It for charging http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE4.pdf
So for a 2900mAh cell that would be about 4.1 A for about 40 minutes (I think in practice you have to charge in pulses with cell balancing stuff in between)
Can't find an acceptable discharge rate range.
Yeah, I couldn't find that either, but the discharge curves available in this old PPT http://download.intel.com/idf/us/docs/PS_EBLS003.pdf give pretty good performance, but only list 0.5C and 1C discharge rates. Something of a mystery battery, since other than that Asus, I haven't seen mention of it used anywhere else. Increasing battery capacity has got to be the easiest way to cut weight and increase performance available to Tesla. With prices so much lower than where they were two years ago, its almost a no brainer. And it would help neutralize those "fat elise" comments that the reviewers like throwing around.
Well I think the Roadster may be stuck with the "fat Elise" taunt. Reducing battery weight would mean re-designing the pack which would require redoing all the crash tests etc etc. When there's Model S and Bluestar (Model T?) to roll out then maybe Tesla will revisit the Roadster if they reach their 25th Anniversary.
Here's hoping - on both counts.