It's the Batteries, Stupid!

[JRP3]

Interesting document on A123 cylindrical and prismatic cells. Page 14 showing over 100,000 cycles of 10% DOD for the 32113 cells.
http://www.rcmaterial.com/pdfs/Prismatic cells A123.pdf

 

[Tim]

Panasonic has new 3.1ah 18650s in production now. I wonder if Tesla is contemplating using these even though the new nnp cells have a different voltage range than standard li-co cells. Swapping the existing cells in the roadster with these would presumably mean greater than 300 mile range.

Panasonic Starts Mass-Production of High-Capacity 3.1 Ah Lithium-ion Battery

 

[Norbert]

Digital Quantum Batteries:

Technology Review: A Quantum Leap in Battery Design

 

[JRP3]

What they are describing sounds similar to what EESTOR is claiming. I wonder if EESTOR has actually already achieved this? This at least gives some credence to the possibility that EESTOR is for real.

 

[Iz]

What they are describing sounds similar to what EESTOR is claiming. I wonder if EESTOR has actually already achieved this? This at least gives some credence to the possibility that EESTOR is for real.

See the Zenn interview under EEstor ultra-capacitors thread. I have my reservations regarding it's authenticity. If the interview is true we can put EEStor into the same category as ZAP.

 

[dpeilow]

Iz, it's a joke. It was someone being funny on the linked forum post.

 

[dpeilow]

Panasonic’s new home battery could store a week’s-worth of electricity | VentureBeat

 

[stopcrazypp]

Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells that can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles - Earth Times

New 3.4ah (mass produced 2012) and 4.0ah (mass produced 2013) 18650 cells in development by Panasonic. This answers my call for a ~2x improvement of density (which would roughly halve the weight of the current pack in the Roadster or double the energy for the same weight).

It seems the improvement estimate of 8% a year is fairly accurate. Starting with a 2.9ah baseline for 2009.

Year Actual Projected(8%/yr)
2009 2.9ah 2.9ah
2010 3.1ah 3.132ah
2012 3.4ah 3.653ah
2013 4.0ah 3.945ah

Hopefully, we see the same thing happen for automotive grade and other large format cells.

 

[TEG]

Panasonic’s new home battery could store a week’s-worth of electricity | VentureBeat

Is lightweight Li-Ion the right thing for stationary storage too?
For home use, I would think something heavier could be more cost effective and possibly have a longer calendar lifespan.

 

[dpeilow]

Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells that can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles - Earth Times

New 3.4ah (mass produced 2012) and 4.0ah (mass produced 2013) 18650 cells in development by Panasonic. This answers my call for a ~2x improvement of density (which would roughly halve the weight of the current pack in the Roadster or double the energy for the same weight).

While this is good news, I'd still sound a note of caution. We've been here before: DailyTech - Matsushita Readies New Battery Tech with 20-40% Greater Capacity (Where's my 3.6Ah cell? )

Anyway, if the 3.1Ah cell that just went into production is what gives the Model S a 300 mile range (do the maths), then 4Ah could up it to around 390 miles. What a shame they can't stick 8000 of these prototypes into a Model S and run off with the X Prize.

Is lightweight Li-Ion the right thing for stationary storage too?
For home use, I would think something heavier could be more cost effective and possibly have a longer calendar lifespan.

Exactly the same thought occurred to me on reading that. You'd think lead acid would be more cost effective (particularly some very large ship batteries that I heard about being thrown out too late recently :frown: ).

On the other hand, maybe this is where recycled Tesla batteries will end up. Or maybe there are distribution and storage costs (that the DIYer doesn't have to contend with) that mean the whole lifetime cost is better for these lighter modules if the market takes off.

 

[JRP3]

Incorrect data removed.

 

[vfx]

...On the other hand, maybe this is where recycled Tesla batteries will end up...f.

Some will make a business out of this.
Modify the Tesla battery box or a new box fit for the sheets out of Roadsters or Model S' that will sit below Solar panels or at the base of a Windmill storing power.

 

[JRP3]

Correction

I misinterpreted the data in the A123 cell testing PDF. The cycle chart showing over 100K cycles is not for the prismatic cells, it's for the 32113 cells, and it's only a shallow 10% cycle. Still impressive but not what I thought. I'll edit my posts to reflect the data.

 

[Alfred]

New cells from Panasonic

Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells that can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles - Earth Times

New 3.4ah (mass produced 2012) and 4.0ah (mass produced 2013) 18650 cells in development by Panasonic. This answers my call for a ~2x improvement of density (which would roughly halve the weight of the current pack in the Roadster or double the energy for the same weight).

It seems the improvement estimate of 8% a year is fairly accurate. Starting with a 2.9ah baseline for 2009.

Year Actual Projected(8%/yr)
2009 2.9ah 2.9ah
2010 3.1ah 3.132ah
2012 3.4ah 3.653ah
2013 4.0ah 3.945ah

Hopefully, we see the same thing happen for automotive grade and other large format cells.

Here is the original reference to the Panasonic press release:
Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells That Can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles | Headquarters News | Panasonic Global

Automotive use is clearly included. That will push the Roadsters range beyond 700km when replacing the battery in 5 years time.

 

[dpeilow]

Yes - a crude assumption gives 406 miles.

How far is it from central London to central Edinburgh on the fastest route? Yep - 406 miles.

So my "London to Scotland battery" that I hoped for this time last year exists somewhere in a lab in Japan :smile:

Are you listening Mr Clarkson?

 

[Iz]

Iz, it's a joke. It was someone being funny on the linked forum post.

Thanks for setting me straight. Looking forward to some positive news from EEStor in 2010.

 

[dpeilow]

ABG has more on these new Panasonic batteries: Panasonic working on even higher capacity 18650 LiIon cells - Autoblog Green

The 4.0 Ah cell goes a different direction with a new silicon-based alloy for the electrode. The result is an energy density of 800 Wh/L compared to the 620 Wh/L of the current generation 2.9 Ah cells and a capacity increase from today's 10.4 Wh to 13.6 Wh. The downside is that the cell voltage drops from 3.6 V to 3.4 V and the mass increases from 44 to 54 g/cell.

And from the comments:

That's great that the energy density by volume will go up by 30%, but the probably more important energy density by mass is only going up by 7%. (236.4 vs 251.9 Wh/kg)

When compared to the 2.9Ah.

 

[TEG]

Perhaps that is the "advanced technology" cell that they have in mind for 300 mile range Model S?

 

[dpeilow]

Perhaps that is the "advanced technology" cell that they have in mind for 300 mile range Model S?

That's more likely to be the 3.1Ah based on previous statements (8000 cells, 85-95kWh).

But who knows what might change in a couple of years.

 

[TEG]

Perhaps, although it is possible that they "derate" the cells and use a portion of the max capacity to extend their lifespan.

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Also I just saw this story that could go in this thread:
2010 Will Not Be the Year of the Electric Car, Consultants Say | SolveClimate.com