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It's the Batteries, Stupid!

Discussion in 'Battery Discussion' started by vfx, May 15, 2008.

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  1. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    #261 JRP3, Dec 18, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2009
  2. Tim

    Tim Member

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  3. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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  4. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    What they are describing sounds similar to what EESTOR is claiming. I wonder if EESTOR has actually already achieved this? This at least gives some credence to the possibility that EESTOR is for real.
     
  5. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    See the Zenn interview under EEstor ultra-capacitors thread. I have my reservations regarding it's authenticity. If the interview is true we can put EEStor into the same category as ZAP.
     
  6. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Iz, it's a joke. It was someone being funny on the linked forum post.
     
  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #268 stopcrazypp, Dec 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2009
    Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells that can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles - Earth Times

    New 3.4ah (mass produced 2012) and 4.0ah (mass produced 2013) 18650 cells in development by Panasonic. This answers my call for a ~2x improvement of density (which would roughly halve the weight of the current pack in the Roadster or double the energy for the same weight).

    It seems the improvement estimate of 8% a year is fairly accurate. Starting with a 2.9ah baseline for 2009.

    Year Actual Projected(8%/yr)
    2009 2.9ah 2.9ah
    2010 3.1ah 3.132ah
    2012 3.4ah 3.653ah
    2013 4.0ah 3.945ah

    Hopefully, we see the same thing happen for automotive grade and other large format cells.
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  9. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    While this is good news, I'd still sound a note of caution. We've been here before: DailyTech - Matsushita Readies New Battery Tech with 20-40% Greater Capacity (Where's my 3.6Ah cell? :mad: )

    Anyway, if the 3.1Ah cell that just went into production is what gives the Model S a 300 mile range (do the maths), then 4Ah could up it to around 390 miles. What a shame they can't stick 8000 of these prototypes into a Model S and run off with the X Prize.




    Exactly the same thought occurred to me on reading that. You'd think lead acid would be more cost effective (particularly some very large ship batteries that I heard about being thrown out too late recently :frown: ).

    On the other hand, maybe this is where recycled Tesla batteries will end up. Or maybe there are distribution and storage costs (that the DIYer doesn't have to contend with) that mean the whole lifetime cost is better for these lighter modules if the market takes off.
     
  10. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    #271 JRP3, Dec 27, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2009
    Incorrect data removed.
     
  11. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Some will make a business out of this.
    Modify the Tesla battery box or a new box fit for the sheets out of Roadsters or Model S' that will sit below Solar panels or at the base of a Windmill storing power.
     
  12. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Correction

    I misinterpreted the data in the A123 cell testing PDF. The cycle chart showing over 100K cycles is not for the prismatic cells, it's for the 32113 cells, and it's only a shallow 10% cycle. Still impressive but not what I thought. I'll edit my posts to reflect the data.
     
  13. Alfred

    Alfred Supporting Member

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    New cells from Panasonic

    Here is the original reference to the Panasonic press release:
    Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells That Can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles | Headquarters News | Panasonic Global

    Automotive use is clearly included. That will push the Roadsters range beyond 700km when replacing the battery in 5 years time.
     
  14. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Yes - a crude assumption gives 406 miles.

    How far is it from central London to central Edinburgh on the fastest route? Yep - 406 miles.

    So my "London to Scotland battery" that I hoped for this time last year exists somewhere in a lab in Japan :smile:

    Are you listening Mr Clarkson?
     
  15. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    Thanks for setting me straight. Looking forward to some positive news from EEStor in 2010.
     
  16. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    ABG has more on these new Panasonic batteries: Panasonic working on even higher capacity 18650 LiIon cells - Autoblog Green

    And from the comments:

    When compared to the 2.9Ah.
     
  17. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Perhaps that is the "advanced technology" cell that they have in mind for 300 mile range Model S?
     
  18. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    That's more likely to be the 3.1Ah based on previous statements (8000 cells, 85-95kWh).

    But who knows what might change in a couple of years.
     
  19. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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