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J1772 Charging for the Tesla Roadster

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by tomsax, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. SByer

    SByer '08 #383

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    I strongly want option #1. I've gone 17 months without an HPC at home, as I didn't want to buy something with an instant-obsolete connector - RFMC into a 10-30 at home, Tesla HPC at work, but I know the work thing won't be an issue by the end of the year (I expect Leafs to show up at Google pretty soon after they're shipping, and Google will be good about installing charger stations).

    I want my car upgraded with a quality J1172 socket, and I could upgrade the RFMC plug myself if a high-quality connector was available (I'd rather avoid plastic!). I'd pay a good amount for the car upgrade - I wouldn't mind Tesla making a little profit on it.

    A barrel adapter would be my second choice option. But keeping around dead-end one-off connectors makes no sense to me. For good or bad, there's now a standard, and since it's not an unreasonable standard, I want to help enforce it.

    (API cruft has a very non-linear cost over time - better to change early and quick and get it over with! Rip off that darned band-aid!)
     
  2. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #22 eledille, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
    OK, I agree. I just hate the J1772 because of its lack of 3~ support.

    I have received an unconditional promise directly from Tesla that Model S will support 3~, most likely at least 63A. I'll see if I can find it.

    In reality, they have no choice. Lack of 3~ support will kill all hope of selling it in Europe, single phase is just not available above 230V 16A, while 3~ is everywhere. Example: we traveled to Denmark by ferry this summer. On the car deck at least a hundred fat cables were dangling from spring-loaded spools in the ceiling, each ending in a red 32A 400V 3~ CEE socket. They provide power to the refrigerated trucks. Many truck stops have them too, I think.

    Tesla should also provide a 3-to-single phase converter for the Roadster. I've heard rumours that they're working on one. That would let Europeans charge it at a useful rate on the road. A solution for Europe would be to retrofit the Mennekes plug and install a phase converter somewhere in the car, in the trunk if necessary. But the cost might be prohibitive, I don't know.

    Very true. Tragic, even.
     
  3. Fuzzylogic

    Fuzzylogic EU Sport 359 & S94

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    According to the preliminary spec i have here, the IEC 62196-2-2 plug should be fine for the Roadster.

     
  4. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    #24 AndrewBissell, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
    Single phase 240V up to 63A is easily available in the UK (which despite euro-sceptic politicians is and always will be geographically in Europe!). Eledille, in your experience, to which countries does the "no higher than 16A on single phase" apply?

    Overall I 100% agree that in Europe 3~ up to 63A is the "low hanging fruit" for fast charge, and that Tesla must support it.

    I'd be very interested to see what Tesla has said to you about 3-phase. In my case I have an email from a Tesla product manager saying there is no chance of the Roadster ever being upgraded for 3-phase, and he sees no evidence of any general interest in the industry in supporting the Mennekes standard. I worry this indicates an overly US-centric viewpoint that may hurt Tesla badly.
     
  5. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #25 eledille, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
    The UK is definitely geographically in Europe. The rest of us think of you as Europeans even if you don't yourselves, most of us even like you :)

    Do you really have 63A single phase sockets already installed all over the country - can you drive into a truck stop and expect to find such an outlet?

    It's technically easy to install a huge 230V single phase outlet, you just connect it through the fuse and RCD between one phase and neutral, but I hear that many places you will not be allowed to do that above 32A (see the thread Charging the Roadster - EU Style).

    But that's not the point, the point is that such outlets are not common, while three phase outlets are. What I meant is that I don't think you will be able to find a place to charge your Model S at more than 16A 230V single phase in continental Europe, at least not without moving a kitchen stove out of the way. In Sweden and Denmark, even dryers and kitchen stoves are commonly three phase. I'd be very happy to learn that I'm mistaken.

    On the other hand, I often spot 3-phase outlets.

    I've been to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, England, Germany, Croatia and France, and will soon visit Spain. My visits to France and Croatia were before I became interested in electric cars, so I wasn't particularly looking in those countries.

    Ouch. When was that from?

    The 3~ support promise was for Model S, not the Roadster. But if they decide to make changes to the Roadster, I assume that they will consider the needs of Model S too when deciding what to do.

    I wouldn't be very surprised if they choose not to provide 3~ for the Roadster. In Europe, however, I really believe that Model S will depend on 3~ support to sell at all.

    Unfortunately I have to make a small tactical retreat here. I was certain the promise was unconditional, I see now that it wasn't. He promises unconditionally that Model S will be adapted to European standards. Then he's merely assuming that three phase up to 63A will be supported. Even so, this is a fairly strong statement, I think.

    My translation of the reply I got from the Sales and Marketing Director of Tesla Motors Europe, after contacting sales at teslamotors dot com follows:

    -----

    Thank you for your mail.

    All information we have on Model S at this time is for the American model. But it will naturally be adapted to European standards.

    I assume it will support three phase charging at 63A.

    Regarding plugs, Tesla will support all the standards. We will avoid the standards war, but will support the dominant standard in each market. (*)

    Regarding changes to the power electronics of the Roadster, this is not so simple, as the power must be stored correctly by the battery. But we are working on various solutions, one example is power electronics that merge three phases to a single, so that the Roadster can be charged optimally with just 24A three phase.

    -------

    (*) I took this to mean that they will provide adapters.

    Original in Danish:

    -----

    Tak for din mail.

    Alle informationer vi har om Model S på nuværende tidspunkt er for den Amerikanske model. Men den vil selvfølgelig blive tilpasset Europæiske standarder.

    Jeg vil gætte på, at den kommer til at understøtte tre fase opladning på 63A.

    Mht. til stik, så understøtter Tesla alle standarder. Vi vil ikke blande os i standard krigen, men blot understøtte den dominerende standard på de enkelte markeder.

    Mht. at lave kraftekeltronikken i Roadsteren om, så er det ikke helt så lige til idet batteriet kræver at strømmen lagres korrekt. Men vi arbejder på forskellige løsninger - eksempelvis kraftelektronik som lægger tre faser sammen til en enkelt, så du kan lade roadsteren optimalt med blot 24A tre fase.
     
  6. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Thanks and I understand your point much better now. I agree that sockets above 16A single phase are thin on the ground, although 32A do exist reasonably widely here. Several publically accessible ones are listed on ev-network.org.uk

    3-phase in public is, by contrast, rare here. But I would love to be able to charge my Roadster from it as it would make touring most of the rest of Europe much easier.

    I had a dialogue with the London Tesla Store in Augsut 09. *I believe Zak provided the answers but can't be sure *My recollection of it differs in detail but not to my mind in spirit: *


    Q.*Specifically when the RWE sponsored charging with Mennekes connector at up to 63A becomes widespread, how will the Roadster access this?

    (How are RWE doing it?)

    How much of the available power will it be able to draw?

    (I have heard that due to "phase imbalance" issues the full 63A at 240V may not be available..)*

    A. The RWE solution is somewhat down the road and is not really being greeted with favour outside of Germany. *We have been in contact with Mennekes, and should this become the standard, Tesla will provide a solution. **

    The HPC will be available in Europe from the end of the year. *This works on a 63 amp single phase. And five of our UK customers are installing 63 amp sockets.*

    The phase imbalance issue only affects cars in Germany due to the way the Germans run their electrical grid.*

    Q. Will the Roadster be capable in future of being upgraded to support fast charging at 63A 3-phase 400-415V over the Mennekes connector?*

    A. It would be able to charge from it, it just wouldn’t be able to utilize the three phase (only the single phase).*

    Q. What about upgrading to other future fast-charging standards?

    (including your own standard proposed for the Model S)*

    A. The Roadster will likely stay with its current charging set up, as upgrading to other future fast charging standards would be costly.
     
  7. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    To return to the thread topic.

    I want to change the socket on my Roadster.

    Ideally to a Mennekes one with the option for upgraded electronics behind (at the time of the socket change or later) to allow 3-phase charging.

    If not, at least to J1772 (since a Mennekes to J1772 cable for single-phase charging up to 70A is envisaged as "normal" under the standard).
     
  8. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    It's worth everyone reading the wikipedia article on IEC 62196: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196

    This implies that 62196 just covers the signalling and voltage side of things. Therefore a J1772 cable is compliant, as they are not specifying plug types.

    It's been assumed that "Mennekes" is a slam-dunk over here. It isn't - there is a competing group in the standardisation process that is gaining some traction. Until such issues are resolved, Tesla's arm is tied on this side of the pond, but if they install J1772 and then provide a J1772 <-> whatever wins cable, that will work.


    To confuse things a bit further - at the talk at the RI in London last week, Don Cochrane specifically said to a (mainly) British audience that the Model S will have DC fast charge. So I think it's anyone's guess at this point in time.

    Regarding 3 phase to single phase conversion, it can be done very simply but what is the market size? Any box has to be CE marked etc etc and that costs big money.
     
  9. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #29 eledille, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2010
    If this is getting off topic (I'm not sure - I think future standard connectors might influence the choice of connectors today), then maybe this part of the discussion should have its own thread.

    Thank you. I should have read that earlier. So the problem is that everything is ICE 62196 compliant, but each connector is compliant to a different subset of the modes.

    The thing that worries me is that I see a lot of support for a plug type that does not support 3~. The Roadster does not support 3~ anyway, so a switch to the J1772 connector does not make the situation any worse than it already is, but it certainly does not improve it either. But Model S must support 3~, or Tesla will lose Europe to the European car makers. Model S can not use only J1772 or TEPCO. The specific plug type is irrelevant, as long as it can accept 400V 3~.

    A 16A 400V 3~ cable has an outer diameter of 14mm and delivers 11 kW, sufficient to charge an empty 300 mile Model S overnight. Carrying a 25m extension cord is no problem and you can buy it at the local hardware store. You need 47 amps of 230V single phase to match it. A 16A 3~ socket is very simple to install at home or for example at holiday homes and camping grounds, and is installed in many places in Europe already. More will pop up once customers start asking for them. I know that both my local shopping center and gas station have them, I'm sure they would help out if a tourist in need asked nicely.

    Once cars that support three phase charging are available, cars that don't support it will be very hard to sell here.

    For the Roadster, yes. For Model S: No, because J1772 does not support 3~, which is almost certainly critical to success for a car aspiring to be a primary family car in Europe.

    CE marking can usually be self certified (you should be certain that you're within the regulations, though). I don't know whether third party testing will be required in this particular case. But true, the market may be too small.

    Support for DC fast charging is nice of course.

    But the really important thing is to be able to utilize the already existing millions of 3~ CEE sockets, and in a few years, be able to roll out your extension cord and stick 11kW into the car at your rented holiday home so it's charged the next morning. 16 or even 32A 230V single just does not cut it.

    And it's not just the Germans that run their grid this way. 400V 3~ distribution all the way to the fuse box (possibly even into the home for the stove and dryer) is as far as I know the way it's done all across continental Europe. If heavy single phase loads are allowed, the electricity provider has no way of ensuring that large loads are not inadvertently connected to the same phase in multiple locations powered by the same transformer. The result may be damage or fire.

    I'm very worried and really hope that Tesla gets this right. This issue is a major reason why I have not yet made a deposit.
     
  10. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    You don't need a single phase outlet, a 3~ 400V 63A outlet will happily supply 1~ 230V 63A if you connect only the neutral and one phase to the CEE plug. Similar with all the other 3~ 400V outlets, with blue 230V 3~ outlets you can do the same but need to connect to two phases instead of phase+neutral.
     
  11. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    Yes, that helps a bit, but 63A sockets are less common than 16 and 32A, and you get only a third of the available power. This might be a halfway fix for the Roadster, but it won't help Model S sell.
     
  12. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    Correct, 230V 32A is only 7.4kW and will not help on the road. For an overnight charge it is enough though. 63A is 14.5kW and still too little for halfway charging, at least the full 3~ 400V 63A will be needed for that (~43.5kW).

    Many devices that take AC rectifies it to DC at once for later DC-DC conversion. These devices run fine on pure DC of the same voltage, the rectifier then does nothing. Is this the case for the Roadster too, can it take 230V DC ? If so, one could make a simple 3~ rectifier and feed the resulting DC to the car. It shouldn't cost a lot.
     
  13. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #33 eledille, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
    For the Roadster, yes. A 300 mile Model S would need 12-14 hours, hardly an overnight charge. 400V 16A 3~ would fill it up in about 8 hours, using a smaller and standard cable.
     
  14. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #34 eledille, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
    Is it legal to pull the full rated current from a single phase? Don't they always split into connectors of half the rated current?

    Edit: No, they don't for 16A, at least.
     
  15. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    In the UK we are actively deploying low cost 32A and 63A sockets at as many locations as possible. We are literally installing sockets for free at suitable sites such as hotels and restaurants. I appreciate that these sockets are not a long term solution, however the low cost will allow us to install hundreds across the UK over the next couple of years.

    Eventually, I'm sure we will move to three phase or DC charging... but in my opinion that's a very long way in the future for the majority of EV drivers.
     
  16. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #36 eledille, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
    Good, the more, the better.

    Why do you think so? It doesn't have to be that way. As I've said, there are already millions of 3~ sockets in Europe. I find them on the car deck of the ferry, gas stations, shopping centers... My father-in-law has got two three phase sockets, one in his garage for his welding equipment, and one in his boat shed to run the winch motor. I know two other guys who have three phase sockets installed. My uncle's pool heater is a three phase device.

    With three-phase support, I'd be able to take my Model S to Denmark and arrive with a full battery after charging on the ferry. I would likely be able to top up while taking a break at a roadside service station. At the holiday home, we would at least be able to borrow the stove circuit for the car during the night, and as soon as customers started asking for three phase sockets they would start to show up - these houses commonly have jaccuzzi, swimming pool, wireless internet, you name it already. Of course they will get a 3~ socket too as soon as the demand is there. If you can't park right next to the house, just buy a 10 or 25m extension cord - a 10m cable weighs 3.5kg and can be bought in any city.

    My wife's parents live about 450km away from us. I'm sure I'll be able to find some service station along the way that is willing to lend us a three phase socket while we have lunch.

    Note that this can be done today, given a compatible car. New charging stations will be an addition to an already present infrastructure.

    I've been driving an EV for three years, and I want to rid myself of oil altogether. I can't see how I will be able to unless I can charge from 3~. Even at 63A single ~, recharging a 300 mile Model S will take 6-7 hours, and I would not likely find a 63A outlet at a holiday home - they would have to upgrade the main breakers to install it, if the electricity company will allow it at all. A 16A, 3~ outlet might very well be installed there, however, and would work just as well.

    High-power single phase will do a fine job for the MiEV, Leaf and possibly the Tesla Roadster, but I believe that 3~ charging is the simplest, best and cheapest way to let an EV take over as the primary car for most European families. That is what I want Model S to do for us. Maybe I've just been overly optimistic.

    DC charging stations are very expensive, and you'll still have to queue and then wait while charging. Much better to charge while sleeping. Support for them would be nice to have in an emergency, though. But building a dense network of such stations will take many, many years.

    What frustrates me so much is that the three phase infrastructure is already there, all that is lacking is some more of those little red sockets and a compatible plug and charger in the car.

    Also, cars produced now must be reasonably future-proof, or their resale value will plummet.

    I've said all I can think of about this now, so I'll try to stop :)
     
  17. mpt

    mpt Electrics are back

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    I think if I were Tesla I'd be shipping all new cars today with J1772 IMO
     
  18. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    In the UK the vast majority of domestic properties have 100A 1~ supplies. Most commercial properties have either 100A 1~ or 100/160/200A 3~.

    My goal is to deliver a low cost network as quickly as possible. If I deployed 3~ then I would exclude the vast majority of domestic and commercial sites from participating (without an expensive supply upgrade), would drive up installation costs, and would probably have no users until the Renault Fluence or Mercedes/Tesla A Class arrives in 2012+.

    Deploying 32A and 63A 1~ allows a low cost network to be deployed rapidly. This does not exclude the possibility of replacing with 3~ or DC in the future... it just allows us to do something proactive today.
     
  19. tomsax

    tomsax Member

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    Our merry band of J1772 Tesla rebels is not alone!

    Just a few days after we did it, some folks in South Carolina showed a Tesla Roadster charging from a J1772 station.

    According a source involved in the demo, they were using a prototype adapter built by the Coulomb folks. Coulomb reportedly doesn't want to be in the adapter business and were very protective of their one-off adapter. Coulomb (like us) is hoping Tesla will provide an official J1772 solution for Roadster owners.

    See also the article in The State.
     
  20. mpt

    mpt Electrics are back

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    Tom, I'm looking to follow suit as we have a chargepoint near here and on-route to Boston. Can you share the wiring diagram from the Tesla cable to the J1772 socket? It'd be especially helpful if you can share in the form of Tesla cable colour to J1772 female pin number.

    Thanks!
     

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