J1772 Combo at Ikea

[darkenergy]

I don't know that you can say that the cost of electricity is zero. The solar panels earn revenue, especially if they are part of the Ontario FIT program. But IKEA must then pay the local utility for any and all kWh that the chargers use. It is not like the energy from the solar panels is going directly to the chargers - it is going back into the grid.

I'm not familiar with how IKEA's EVSEs are wired up, but the FIT programs are/were setup to pay higher than market rates for the electricity generated. So any power supplied to the EVSEs would still be generating money.

If they aren't part of FIT then it would be net metering, and the cost of power would still be close to zero.

Ether way, the actual cost of power for the cars nets out and is close to zero. Particularly considering the value the EVSEs bring to the business, and that they, and the panels, can be depreciated against business revenue.

 

[darkenergy]

And @darkenergy - there is nothing free about energy from solar panels, except that the "fuel" is free. Solar power costs are almost 100% capital costs, but are still costs. And energy consumed by EV charging could have been sold to the grid... that opportunity cost is a cost indeed.

Which is exactly why I said the cost of the electricity is effectively zero. The fuel is free, and the capital cost of the solar system is depreciated against the revenue of the business. We already know that solar is the cheapest form of electricity and given those stores suck a fair amount of power they wouldn't have installed the systems unless there was a compelling business case to save money.

Unless your position is that they only did it for green washing? Which I find hard to believe given that IKEA is an incredibly profitable business.

 

[darkenergy]

I don't follow the logic. It's free power, if a stall is open, I'll use the free charging that they are offering their patrons, and sometimes will chose over a competing business because they provide free charging.

Everyone likes free fuel, but at public chargers I try to be considerate towards EVs with small batteries. There are a limited number of chargers and I wouldn't want to be the asshole who blocked an i-MiEV, or Smart, or old Leaf from charging. Because it could very well mean them being unable to get home.

 

[adaptabl]

I'm not familiar with how IKEA's EVSEs are wired up, but the FIT programs are/were setup to pay higher than market rates for the electricity generated. So any power supplied to the EVSEs would still be generating money.

If they aren't part of FIT then it would be net metering, and the cost of power would still be close to zero.

Ether way, the actual cost of power for the cars nets out and is close to zero. Particularly considering the value the EVSEs bring to the business, and that they, and the panels, can be depreciated against business revenue.

That's a way to try to spin it. The cost of the power does not net out to zero. The cost of the power is what the business pays for the power, plain and simple. In Ontario for businesses the cost is about 10-15 cents per KWH. If it has solar there is still the same cost as and power used by EV chargers will have to be replaced by grid power. I think al public EV chargers should have a charge equal to the cost of electricity at a minimum. This will keep them free for those who really need them. It looks really bad when you see a P100D plugged in to a public charger just to get a better parking spot.

 

[mknox]

I'm not familiar with how IKEA's EVSEs are wired up, but the FIT programs are/were setup to pay higher than market rates for the electricity generated. So any power supplied to the EVSEs would still be generating money.

If they aren't part of FIT then it would be net metering, and the cost of power would still be close to zero.

Ether way, the actual cost of power for the cars nets out and is close to zero. Particularly considering the value the EVSEs bring to the business, and that they, and the panels, can be depreciated against business revenue.

The Ontario EV Charging Incentive program had nothing to do whatsoever with FIT or net metering. They are two completely different and unrelated things. FIT payed a premium for renewable energy systems that supply power directly back to the grid. Net metering does something similar but at the prevailing electricity rate. The Charging Incentive program funded the capital costs of installing EV chargers and had nothing to do with where the electricity for those chargers comes from.

 

[wayner]

I think al public EV chargers should have a charge equal to the cost of electricity at a minimum. This will keep them free for those who really need them. It looks really bad when you see a P100D plugged in to a public charger just to get a better parking spot.

I agree with this completely. Having free charging at office complexes leads to EV owners to charge during the day rather than to charge overnight - if you don't do that you are acting irrationality. I do it myself - if I am driving downtown I will not bother charging, I will charge in the parking lot to get free electricity and a better parking spot. But it is not good for society as it adds to peak demand and will increase CO2 emissions since they don't have to fire up NatGas plants at 4am to meet incremental demands but many days they do have to fire up those plants at 10am.

 

[darkenergy]

The Ontario EV Charging Incentive program had nothing to do whatsoever with FIT or net metering.

Then it's a good thing that I didn't say anything about that program. Unless you're trying to point out that the EVCIP would have further reduced the costs of supplying customers with free charge points?

 

[mknox]

Then it's a good thing that I didn't say anything about that program. Unless you're trying to point out that the EVCIP would have further reduced the costs of supplying customers with free charge points?

The program subsidized L2 and DCFC sites throughout the province, but the site owners had to guarantee maintenance for a certain period of time. The cost of power is up to the station owner and there were no stipulations put on what EVCIP recipients could charge for use of the stations. Many (most?) of the DCFC site charge a per-minute fee. IKEA, the GTAA and a few others (Region of Peel for instance) are not currently charging for use. IKEA did receive provincial funding for at least some of the stations they installed.

My point was that FIT contracts supply power back to the grid at contracted rates. It is not utilized at the site... it would be crazy to do so when you can sell for more than what you pay for power.

 

[darkenergy]

My point was that FIT contracts supply power back to the grid at contracted rates. It is not utilized at the site... it would be crazy to do so when you can sell for more than what you pay for power.

Totally with you there. Any power that IKEA generates offsets the cost of supplying the EVSE power and gives them a small profit. And the reality is the vast bulk of their generated power goes into reducing the cost of their operational electrical requirements. I'm sure that their cost accountants made sure any solar installation would reduce their operating costs overall.

 

[adaptabl]

Totally with you there. Any power that IKEA generates offsets the cost of supplying the EVSE power and gives them a small profit. And the reality is the vast bulk of their generated power goes into reducing the cost of their operational electrical requirements. I'm sure that their cost accountants made sure any solar installation would reduce their operating costs overall.

There is no profit in supplying EVSE power. Any power generated by solar offsets the cost of lights and environmental controls. The cost of providing EVSE power is exactly what it cost to buy in from the grid.

 

[mknox]

There is no profit in supplying EVSE power. Any power generated by solar offsets the cost of lights and environmental controls. The cost of providing EVSE power is exactly what it cost to buy in from the grid.

Agree, but I guess it all depends on how you do your accounting. It would be just as easy to say the profit on IKEA sales offsets the cost of EVSE power too.Theoretically, the intent of the high FIT kWh rates paid is to allow someone to pay down the original capital cost of the equipment in a reasonable period of time.

 

[darkenergy]

There is no profit in supplying EVSE power. Any power generated by solar offsets the cost of lights and environmental controls. The cost of providing EVSE power is exactly what it cost to buy in from the grid.

Do go back and read my original post. I responded to "there is no profit motive" for providing free charging / EVSEs to customers.

There's no profit in providing chairs at coffee shops either, they just add to your cost and reduce the margin on your product. You certainly don't need a chair to consume a coffee. Yet oddly enough, people like to go to coffee shops that have chairs.

Cheers!

 

[rhumbliner]

Say it with me... "free charging is not sustainable". There's no profit motive or even cost recovery opportunity for maintaining the equipment, except for an opaque amenity for a small percentage of Ikea shoppers.

Wouldn’t you put the free breakfast offered by most hotels in the same category? Or free in-room wifi? Or free in-room refrigerator? The profit motive and cost recovery comes from increased occupancy. Free charging strikes me as being just another amenity that may someday be commonplace.

 

[rypalmer]

Wouldn’t you put the free breakfast offered by most hotels in the same category? Or free in-room wifi? Or free in-room refrigerator? The profit motive and cost recovery comes from increased occupancy. Free charging strikes me as being just another amenity that may someday be commonplace.

I agree it's different when offered as a key amenity, but IMHO it's not akin to offering a free breakfast. Perhaps when charging at a hotel is as commonplace as eating their breakfast, it will be different. For now, no hotel makes or breaks their business based on whether free charging is offered.

One huge problem with charging at hotels is that in expanding charging, the costs won't scale linearly. The underlying distribution infrastructure will need to be upgraded, and without some sort of profit motive to at least recoup costs, I don't think we'll see capital investment to get the average hotel past the 4 station mark. 5+ stations will end up being a lot of amps, potentially higher demand charges, etc. The economics will worsen.

My preference remains for L2 charging to be paid charging, so someone will care enough to invest the capital, keep the stations online and well maintained to match the demand.

 

[MarcoRP]

The L2 sun country chargers at IKEA are particularly unreliable. Maybe they get more traffic than your typical EVSE...

This comment will probably be ignored by most, seen I’m talking about something totally different, but anyways, it seems that several IKEAs have decided to remove the Sun Country chargers and to replace them with dual ChargePoint chargers... Let’s hope this works out!

 

[pcons]

This comment will probably be ignored by most, seen I’m talking about something totally different, but anyways, it seems that several IKEAs have decided to remove the Sun Country chargers and to replace them with dual ChargePoint chargers... Let’s hope this works out!

Yes, the one in Burlington, ON went from 2x Sun Country to 4x Chargepoint. Much better, the SCH ones were always broken, and you couldn't tell if anyone was plugged in when they actually were working. With the chargepoint ones, there are 2x more stations, and you can actually see if they are free before going there (there is a grocery store there as well, so sometimes we will shop there if there is a station open, because why not). I have a volt right now, probably when I get the model 3 I wont need to care much about public charging since I'll have 5-6x the EV range of my volt

 

[darkenergy]

This comment will probably be ignored by most, seen I’m talking about something totally different, but anyways, it seems that several IKEAs have decided to remove the Sun Country chargers and to replace them with dual ChargePoint chargers... Let’s hope this works out!

Good to know. Thanks for sharing!

 

[RiverBrick]

it seems that several IKEAs have decided to remove the Sun Country chargers and to replace them with dual ChargePoint chargers

IKEA just opened in Quebec City and they went with FLO for four 208V charging stations. Free to use, but you still need the card or app from FLO or a compatible network.
The FLO/AddEnergie headquarters are less than 5 km away, so it may have been a local choice.

 

[XHabjab]

I agree it's different when offered as a key amenity, but IMHO it's not akin to offering a free breakfast. Perhaps when charging at a hotel is as commonplace as eating their breakfast, it will be different. For now, no hotel makes or breaks their business based on whether free charging is offered.

One huge problem with charging at hotels is that in expanding charging, the costs won't scale linearly. The underlying distribution infrastructure will need to be upgraded, and without some sort of profit motive to at least recoup costs, I don't think we'll see capital investment to get the average hotel past the 4 station mark. 5+ stations will end up being a lot of amps, potentially higher demand charges, etc. The economics will worsen.

My preference remains for L2 charging to be paid charging, so someone will care enough to invest the capital, keep the stations online and well maintained to match the demand.

I'm amazed that this discussion is taking place in The Land of the Block Heater.

If I'm going on an ICE road trip in the winter and plan to stay in a town that has a hotel that charges for breakfast, wifi and a block heater and another hotel that doesn't charge, my brain is capable of figuring out which hotel I'll stay at. The block heater plug is not invisible or irrelevant.

Update this to the EV version of the story. Why is there any argument about it?

 

[rypalmer]

I'm amazed that this discussion is taking place in The Land of the Block Heater.

If I'm going on an ICE road trip in the winter and plan to stay in a town that has a hotel that charges for breakfast, wifi and a block heater and another hotel that doesn't charge, my brain is capable of figuring out which hotel I'll stay at. The block heater plug is not invisible or irrelevant.

Update this to the EV version of the story. Why is there any argument about it?

More than an order of magnitude more power. Block heaters: 0.4kW each. EV chargers: 6-12kW each.