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Jack up the fees please!!!!

callmesam

Member
Jan 22, 2013
985
629
Santa Monica
Hold on a sec. NO. I won't. Just cannot go back to that point in time with a clipboard, my time machine is not working. OK for you to say you disagree with my assertions... your right. Over and out.

You had plenty of time to make an unsubstantiated allegations about locals who were making your trip difficult. When I ask you whatever evidence you have for them being "locals" you offer up no substance. So not only can't I evaluate your assertions, but neither can you.

Then you take this unsubstantiated conclusion to extrapolate that fees should be "jacked up."

So, no, I won't continue to dogpile on imaginary charging scofflaws. I won't attack owners who charge at empty Supercharger. I won't make assumptions about owner intentions without EVIDENCE. But that's just how I operate.

Demand evidence and think critically.
 
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jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,676
1,926
Teller County CO
I spend money while supercharging. Funny all you perfect people want to call me names, yet none of you know me and none of you would ever do it in person. Just keep hiding behind your anonymity on the internet. I won't tell you few what I think of you, but if you are ever in the Central Valley I will meet you at Starbucks and debate this all day long, because your wrong and probably Jealous.

Jealous of what exactly? Why would I be jealous of someone who lives in Fresno?

Come on, tell me what you think of me, let the hate flow through you... I have no problems telling you what I think of you, at least to the point of getting myself in trouble with the mods again... You're clearly an entitled, self-centered, and... I can't finish the rest of the sentence...

We're not wrong, this is not complicated, you're the person stealing electricity... You'd think as someone who claims to work for the state as a parole officer you'd understand the difference between right and wrong, but then again...

Jeff
 

jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,676
1,926
Teller County CO
Dont worry about some of these guys, their just uptight about some stuff were theres no problem at all. By the way Ive had family in Madera all my life. I probably will be hitting the fresno SC later in July as I go through to sequoia

Which again is perfectly fine... How is it that you can't comprehend the purpose of this discussion despite 9 pages of it now??? It's not about people using SC as they TRAVEL. It's about people like this clown who are using it to replace their home charging costs which is emphatically wrong in every possible way you slice it...

Jeff
 

jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,676
1,926
Teller County CO
I really didn't think I would say anything to defend this jchag person, especially as I am a prospective Model 3 owner who does at least 95 percent of his driving locally and will therefor hardly ever get to see an SC in person (especially as we don't have any SCs in close enough proximity anyway), but one thing really bugs me in this discussion. And that is comments about "abusing" the system, or "the spirit" of the system. Sure, SCs are mainly intended for making long distance BEV travel easier. But for someone who has paid for a car with the highly advertised "free supercharging for life" and who is using that priviledge at an SC with lots of empty stalls, so not hindering anyone else, why is that "abusing" the system, or "stealing electrons from Tesla"?

Even though that specific user might be as sympathetic as your newly elected "Grabber-in-chief" to the majority of people, I can understand his basic reasoning.

Why is this so hard for some of you to understand??? Really??? I even quoted the text from Tesla's website and yet you jump in here as if you're totally oblivious just like whats his name... They're not intended mainly, their intended ENTIRELY for long distance BEV travel. The moment you use it to supplement your own home charging, you're abusing the system and stealing electricity. It's really that black and white and really that simple. We have been having threads like this since the day Tesla opened the first SC and the line of demarcation hasn't moved, it's still in the same exact spot it's always been. If you're traveling, the network is at your disposal. If you're not, then any use of it is abuse and in my opinion specifically, theft.

Jeff
 

callmesam

Member
Jan 22, 2013
985
629
Santa Monica
It turns out that @jchag may be doing exactly what the program intended.

"Over the last year, Tesla has been lining up deals with the businesses located where it installs its Supercharger stations and making them contribute to the cost of the electricity used to charge the cars in exchange for bringing customers."

And it gets even better:

John Brehm, Hy-Vee director of site planning, said about the deal (via The Gazette):

The time it takes for an average shopper to get through a grocery store to get groceries is about the same time it takes to get a full charge on a decent fast charger like this. So it’s a marriage made in heaven.”
 
Last edited:

jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,676
1,926
Teller County CO
It turns out that @jchag may be doing exactly what the program intended.

"Over the last year, Tesla has been lining up deals with the businesses located where it installs its Supercharger stations and making them contribute to the cost of the electricity used to charge the cars in exchange for bringing customers."

And it gets even better:

John Brehm, Hy-Vee director of site planning, said about the deal (via The Gazette):

The time it takes for an average shopper to get through a grocery store to get groceries is about the same time it takes to get a full charge on a decent fast charger like this. So it’s a marriage made in heaven.”

LOL... No... Not at all... Come on... Stop feeding this crap will you please? The purpose of this program is to draw EV people into an establishment, it's certainly not to supplement/replace home charging. So again no, that's not what the SC network is for at all.

Why do you keep defending this? Are you also having trouble comprehending what the SC network is for and when it's appropriate to use it...???

Jeff
 

callmesam

Member
Jan 22, 2013
985
629
Santa Monica
LOL... No... Not at all... Come on... Stop feeding this crap will you please? The purpose of this program is to draw EV people into an establishment, it's certainly not to supplement/replace home charging. So again no, that's not what the SC network is for at all.

Why do you keep defending this? Are you also having trouble comprehending what the SC network is for and when it's appropriate to use it...???

Jeff

It works better if you respond to what I posted.

A grocery store has installed Supercharging and is paying some or all of the electricity costs to bring Tesla customers into their store. The owner doesn't care if the person is local. In fact, I'm certain they want every single Tesla owner nearby to come, charge and shop. That evidence is inconsistent with your equating Supercharger use with abuse.

In another post, I quoted Elon Musk who stated that Superchargers are NOT just for long distance travel. They are also for owners who rent, or live in cities without fixed parking.

Now I've made ~200 Supercharger visits in my 75,000 miles and I'm pretty comfortable with what the Supercharging Network is for. It enables long distance travel. And it enables lots of other travel too. Perhaps you can explain the Superchargers at various airports, used by Taxi fleets and Limo Services. Why does Tesla keep selling to those pesky Taxi companies?

And yes, I've been stuck waiting at crowded Superchargers. But my lines have been in Barstow, Tejon and Harris Ranch. There were exactly zero cars st the Fresno Supercharger when I drove to Yosemite last summer.

And to top it off, Tesla has eliminated incentives for local charging with limited Free for Life and paid. I wonder if they'll pass along discounted Supercharging where business pays for the electricity. So, no, I don't think it is anywhere as clear cut as you state.
 

Kurt'sX

Member
Nov 1, 2016
128
93
Victor, Washington
I understand that the "Pay to Charge" program went into effect on new purchases after 1-15-17. Does anyone know if or when the "Idle Fee" will be implemented? Ive not received any official notice.
 

bonnie

I play a nice person on twitter.
Feb 6, 2011
16,427
9,739
Columbia River Gorge
Funny, I was not offensive. I stated facts on my charging and got attacked. This really makes me laugh.

What general rule? I call Bull****! I've been on these boards a long time and I laugh at the cheap Tesla owners, How many times has a new app came out and people her whine because it cost too much, $5. People who own Tesla's are the same as people who own a Ford or a Chevy, They for the most part have deeper pockets and like to whine a lot. I spend more money Supercharging than I spent on gas. Google the Fresno SC and check the resturants around it, yes been to almost all of them and many of them numerous times. I'm sure I spent well over a hundred at McDonalds alone and I have only had car since August! Also our supercharger is rarely half full and 6 cars out of 10 stalls is the max i have ever witnessed there. Go back to complaining about spending $1000,000 for a car and the blind spot detection doesn't work. I think many here are hypocrites, I would love to see TeslaFi logs on many of the whines and see where they charge. "Myjayakumar complains only because a Supercharger isn't close enough to him to locally charge.

I think we have different definitions of 'offensive'. I'm not saying no one else was, but your hands aren't exactly clean either. And you're the one claiming the high road.
 

TexLaw

Member
Jan 29, 2017
483
431
Bellaire, TX
Idle fees cannot just be nominal ( a la "eh, it's only x") or even reasonable (the Freakonomics "I'm paying for it"). They ought to be truly punitive. I don't normally advocate for this sort of thing, but the heart and soul of the SpC is that availability--get in, get what you need, and get out. Yes, there can be emergencies, but that can be handled by providing drivers with a reasonable number of "emergency waivers" per year or something along those lines. As long as idle fees are not even an issue unless the SpC is 50% full, I don't see how anyone can complain without sounding like an inconsiderate jerk.

Frankly, I would like to see the "idle fee" be more of a "sitting fee" where the meter starts running as soon as you pull up to the station but waived if you move the car within five minutes of the end of the charging session.

I do agree that deferring payment for idle fees until you visit a SC is pretty poor, but I also understand how Tesla wanted to impose these before having the infrastructure to collect on the fly. Since there already will be a credit card on file for SpC for post-1/15 orders, I expect this will change sooner rather than later.

On that note, though, does anyone know if the Tesla app will alert you if circumstances change such that an idle fee would imposed? I can see a scenario where someone leaves when their car is the only one at the station only to come back to find they are subject to an idle fee when they return. Alerting them of the change not only would be fair but also good, in that it lets them know that there is an actual need to move.

With regard to shooing off local chargers, the charging fee just needs to be more than the rate one would pay to charge the car at home. Right now, supercharging is free. Regardless of what it says about someone's character, it's easy for someone to think "why should I pay for this at all, when I can get it for free at the mall?" It makes no difference whether it's only pennies, people do crazy, selfish stuff for "free," no matter what it is.

As the SpC network expands and the unlimited superchargers become a smaller and smaller portion of the fleet, the local charger problem likely will become less an less severe. Honestly, I don't at all mind if Tesla makes money off the SpC network, whether through idle fees or charging fees. I applaud Tesla stating that it intends never to treat supercharging as a profit center, so long as they properly expand and maintain it. There's no reason it cannot eventually sustain itself as a business unit. If you bought your car with unlimited supercharging, that won't change. If you didn't, you can expect costs to vary. The website is quite clear that the current complimentary credits "apply to Model S and X ordered after January 15, 2017," so we can expect it to change and, likely, fade away. I wouldn't be surprised if substantially fewer or no credits come with the Model 3.
 
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jareade

Member
Jan 2, 2017
557
1,688
Driving
Why is this so hard for some of you to understand??? Really??? I even quoted the text from Tesla's website and yet you jump in here as if you're totally oblivious just like whats his name... They're not intended mainly, their intended ENTIRELY for long distance BEV travel. The moment you use it to supplement your own home charging, you're abusing the system and stealing electricity. It's really that black and white and really that simple. We have been having threads like this since the day Tesla opened the first SC and the line of demarcation hasn't moved, it's still in the same exact spot it's always been. If you're traveling, the network is at your disposal. If you're not, then any use of it is abuse and in my opinion specifically, theft. Jeff

I think it's funny that people on both side of this argument get so worked up. IMO, busy SC, locals should probably be considerate and not charge to the detriment of travelers. And frankly, I get it - I mean, why would a local want to wait in line to charge when they can likely charge cheaply and efficiently at home. Totally empty SC? I just don't see the problem - especially if, as @callmesam, notes, local stores are going to sponsor SCs in an attempt to bring in local Tesla owners. And do you really believe that Tesla feels the same way you do? You specifically state: The moment you use it to supplement your own home charging, you're abusing the system and stealing electricity. It's really that black and white and really that simple. I'd disagree. I think you're going over the tips of your skis with that statement and don't see what's black and white about it. And I certainly don't consider it theft. I wonder how many here think that? Inconsiderate? Yes, I can see that, especially in a crowded SC. Theft? Like, go to jail and have a felony record? Because someone bought a $100K car that Tesla explicitly permits to be plugged into any SC - whether it's 1 mile from your house or 1,000 miles? Nah, you totally lose me when you say that and unfortunately, IMO, lose credibility in your argument.

I asked a question upstream a bit ago when you said that Tesla was going to cut-off jchag's SC access. Do you really believe that? What examples do you have of Tesla doing that? Further, when is Tesla going to start filing theft complaints against local owners? Again, I just don't see that within any realm of possibility.

Frankly, I wish I had what I consider to be a local SC. There's a grand total of one within 90 minutes of my house (in any direction, although east and south will get you into the Atlantic Ocean and I don't advise that) and it certainly wouldn't be convenient to use on a regular basis. However, as I similarly noted up thread, I've passed it probably 50 times in the 8 months it has been opened (and have only owned my Tesla for a few weeks) and at least 75% of the time it is entirely empty. And when it is being used, I've never seen more than 2 cars using it at once. The electricity is supplied/partially paid for/sponsored by (I'm not sure which is accurate) the grocery store (JR's market) that is 100 yards away. I'm sure they would encourage local Tesla owners to come and shop and charge while they are doing it. I'd have to pass about 8 other grocery stores and waste 20-25 minutes of my time in each direction to go there and do that from my house, so I have no interest in doing so. But I've got no problems if any local owners feel differently and want to do that. I just wish I knew any other local owners, period - we seem to have very few southern NJ Tesla owners! Finally, I'll repeat my other upstream comment - drive your Tesla to southern NJ and fill up all you want at the EHT SC. At least 75% of the time you'll be the only one there. And while you're here, go spend some money in Atlantic City - they really need it! :)
 

jeffro01

Active Member
Jan 30, 2013
2,676
1,926
Teller County CO
I asked a question upstream a bit ago when you said that Tesla was going to cut-off jchag's SC access. Do you really believe that? What examples do you have of Tesla doing that? Further, when is Tesla going to start filing theft complaints against local owners? Again, I just don't see that within any realm of possibility.

No, that's not what I said. I said Tesla COULD do it to any owner if they really wanted to. I don't know of anyone actually having that happen to them and even if Tesla wanted to do that, you'd get plenty of warnings and chances before it even got that far anyhow. I also said, if I were in charge I'd do things quite differently. However, I realize completely that I'm in no way in charge of anything at Tesla and my opinions on the matter are just that, my opinions.

Jeff
 

Electroman

Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2012
6,114
6,167
TX
You had plenty of time to make an unsubstantiated allegations about locals who were making your trip difficult. When I ask you whatever evidence you have for them being "locals" you offer up no substance. So not only can't I evaluate your assertions, but neither can you.

Look, it is silly and impossible for someone to demand they show their proof of residence if we have need to infer they are local or not. Sometimes you make an inference, based on the decades of experience you have observing people and events. And 99% of the time you are right. If you see someone wearing a burka they are most likely not a native from Ireland. If you see a bunch of cars plugging and the driver gets back with milk and other groceries atleast some of them may not be locals.

You can keep asking, 'how do you know?, what evidence do you have? did you check their govt issued ID? even then did you run their IDs against the govt database to see if they are valid,...". Or you can make an inference even if you can't get those 'valid under the court of law' evidences.
 
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Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,602
8,749
Palmdale, CA
I don't really have any heartburn with locals charging. Mostly because I know I will be in that situation in the future. We are planning to move back to Texas and may be living in an apartment for 6-12 months while we buy a house. I will try to find an apartment with a garage and 120v power, but that might not be possible. In that eventuality I will be one of the "problems". If a supercharger is more convenient to me than a DC fast charger that I have to pay for, then, yes, I will be using the supercharger.

I won't leave my car past charging or anything, but I would wait in a line because I will need the charge just as must as the long distance travelers.

I have actually already had to use my "local" supercharger up in Mojave once because I went down to the Burbank SC in the morning, ran a bunch more errands before work and wasnt sure if I would make it home in below freezing temps after work. So I swung into the Mojave SC for 20 minutes to get enough buffer for my drive home.

Sometimes locals do need SCs too.
 

TexLaw

Member
Jan 29, 2017
483
431
Bellaire, TX
Just for the record, I have no problem with locals charging at superchargers. Unlike some others, I do not believe that the SpC network is solely for long distance travel or only for those that are not able to charge at home. Without a doubt, Tesla has placed its superchargers primarily to accommodate those drivers, but no one is stealing anyone's electrons. Any abuse comes primarily from those who treat the charging stations as long-term parking places with a perk.

There also is little doubt that Tesla's attitude toward the SpC has changed over the last year or so, as demonstrated by the allowance and fee structure and partnerships with businesses who wish to attract customers. I am just speculating, but I would guess that destination charging is not working out quite like Tesla hoped (not as widely; not as quickly; often ICEd or improperly maintained). SpCs are not just for travelers who are passing through.

In any case, a number of users on both sides of the jchag/jeffro01 war have acted beyond the pale.
 
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jchag

Member
Mar 29, 2014
195
206
Madera, CA
I will make another confession. I charge my 60D to 100%. I know I'm supposed to only charge to 90% and the car even reminds me of that. I have read lots of post from the TMC community and I believe my car will be OK. I apologize now to the owners of 40K, 60K (non software limited), 75K, 85K, 90K, and 100K owners who cannot utilize that last 10% in their car on a regular basis.
 

AustinPowers

Total Smeghead
Jan 27, 2012
2,065
1,023
Frankfurt, Germany
Why is this so hard for some of you to understand??? Really??? I even quoted the text from Tesla's website and yet you jump in here as if you're totally oblivious just like whats his name... They're not intended mainly, their intended ENTIRELY for long distance BEV travel. The moment you use it to supplement your own home charging, you're abusing the system and stealing electricity. It's really that black and white and really that simple. We have been having threads like this since the day Tesla opened the first SC and the line of demarcation hasn't moved, it's still in the same exact spot it's always been. If you're traveling, the network is at your disposal. If you're not, then any use of it is abuse and in my opinion specifically, theft.

Jeff

Read what callmesam wrote in post #169. Imho that sums it up perfectly.
 

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