Jag gets in on the "EV's don't have to look stupid" Market.

[gregd]

IMO there's more tolerance, even acceptance, in the EV community towards cars that look different. As long as the design is "form follows function". THE two 'ingredients' for car makers to make the transition to electric drive is to make EVs a lot lighter and more streamlined without sacrificing passenger safety. Then a considerably smaller (and lighter) battery pack will suffice to still score a decent range.

I agree that there are things about an electric drive train that frees a designer to create forms that he/she wouldn't attempt with an ICE. But, I can't for the life of me ascribe the front design of the BMW i3 to that.

I think Topher ultimately has the right approach. Natural Selection at its finest. Given that we do have choices, pick the one that appeals to you. Don't settle for "ugly", unless there's something in that ugliness that appeals to you. You shouldn't have to settle.

But given that some auto makers appear to be producing ugly on purpose, and that some of the non-ugly choices aren't exactly available yet, some near-term buyers will be faced with a hard choice. Do I buy an ugly EV, or switch brands, or stay with the pretty ICE the dealer is pushing (dragging) me towards? We obviously wouldn't advocate buying an ICE, and the members of this forum tend to prefer Teslas over others. But there is serious work to do, to cause the major auto makers to build the pretty EVs that we want, in the volume we need. We can only cause change by our buying behavior (and in some states by writing our lawmakers, but that's a different topic). Is it more effective in the cause of change to buy "ugly", in spite of ugly, because the car meets your other needs, or to either switch brands or wait until you can get the "pretty" car that you really want?

My opinion: If you have a historical brand loyalty that you want to honor, my feeling is that you should buy ugly if that is the EV your auto maker is producing. For sure, it's better that than buying their ICE. If their ugly car doesn't meet your other requirements, then I think the right answer is to switch brands and buy (ugly or not) a car that does. In other words, I think that for right now, it is better to buy an ugly EV that meets your needs than to wait or buy an ICE. Generating volume in EVs, I think, will send a stronger message in the short term than waiting to buy pretty. Over time, pretty will win over ugly, once the demand for EV is recognized. Nobody knows you are even voting when you opt to wait, and it takes time for an auto maker to realize that their customers are going elsewhere if you switch brands. Once the message is truly received (a few years?), let nature take its course.

By way of full disclosure, I made my choice just over 2 years ago with the purchase of a beautiful Tesla Roadster. Fortunately for me, ugly wasn't necessary.

 

[AB4EJ]

The Jaguar is not bad looking, but I'm not that crazy about it for 2 reasons:

• It looks too much like a Ford Focus. (Maybe that's what it is - a rebadged Focus?) See photo below.
  
• It still has the traditional "EV Look" where the stylists have it in their mind that it is an EV and it comes out looking like one (i.e., strange, like the Leaf, the BMW i3, even the Bolt).

 

[Sonny Daze]

It looks fine to me and at least I know what size battery it will have and what the interior looks like and I'd prefer a hatchback/liftback. I'm not that interested in automation or long distance travel so if it ever actually exists I would be interested.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I'll take looks too much like a Focus as a good thing. It looks like a normal car.

One could say the i3 looks too much like a smart car that just rear-ended an 18-wheeler.

I sat in one at an auto show... I don't think you could pay me to drive that thing... well, maybe $4,000/month, but man-o-day is it fugly... outside AND in. I had to drown out all memories of the experience with some Fireball that night...

 

[gavine]

I'll take looks too much like a Focus as a good thing. It looks like a normal car.

One could say the i3 looks too much like a smart car that just rear-ended an 18-wheeler.

I sat in one at an auto show... I don't think you could pay me to drive that thing... well, maybe $4,000/month, but man-o-day is it fugly... outside AND in. I had to drown out all memories of the experience with some Fireball that night...

I have an i3 and I agree it's mostly ugly, but after owning it for over a year, it's starting to grow on me. I understand what BMW was trying to do with the looks vs. function and they, for the most part succeeded. It drives very well and I enjoy driving it. It's no Tesla, but with the limited alternatives that were out at the time, it was really the best choice for an affordable companion EV to our Model X.

I have a Model 3 reserved and that will be replacing my i3. I'm sure the Model 3 will be better in every way.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I agree the options are very limited at this time. I had to break my budget and sell 2 jet skis and 2 of my cars to get into a S. I don't regret it, but it was not a cheap car...

I keep thinking a loaded to the gills 3 will hopefully land under $60k and thinking man what a "value" lol.

 

[voyager]

I agree that there are things about an electric drive train that frees a designer to create forms that he/she wouldn't attempt with an ICE. But, I can't for the life of me ascribe the front design of the BMW i3 to that.

Could be "worse"... Toyota's i-TRIL Concept Leans Into The Future Of Urban Mobility

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Well, now... with enough horse power that could be fun... but I'd never take it on a highway! I'm sure with 3 wheels it has the same crash rating as a Polaris Slingshot lol. Super fun though!

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

BAM!
What have I been saying?!

"The ZOE is one of the most popular all-electric vehicles in Europe and that’s partly because Renault made it look like most European compact vehicles and not some EV-centric design that is rarely appreciated."


Renault unveils a sexier version of its all-electric ZOE in Geneva: ZOE e-Sport Concept

 

[McRat]

It sort of comical to use the word "normal" when describing the fashion of vehicles or attractive even:

 

[smac]

It looks too much like a Ford Focus.

In isolation or from certain angles possibly. However it's a lot bigger car.

Here it is with a context of scale:

Here it is on the move (under it's own power which isn't always the case with concept cars).

There is even a camo spec production version running around on UK roads:

Jaguar I-Pace: first pic of production-spec electric SUV | Autocar


It looks very much to me like JLR are serious about this car arriving in H2/2018, and personally I am pretty tempted for it as a replacement for my Model S when it's warranty coincidentally expires.

Now if they can stick to the F Pace + 10-15% pricing, that is the biggest unknown right now.

Of course it won't suit everyone, the lack of charging network being the key omission, but as I 100% home charge that's no big problem.

 

[Jaff]

you do realize that a big manufacturer like gm makes cars with many body styles and differing levels of features? some may appeal to you some don't.

I'll reiterate, rather than complain about the cosmetic aspects of what they will be offering we should all celebrate the fact that another "player" understands and wants to participate in the EV revolution.

..."understands and wants to participate in the EV revolution.", whilst actively being a participant in the pathetic group of 12 auto manufacturers lobbying the Trump administration to relax emission standards?

I'd get a more warm and fuzzy feeling if Jag said to the effect "here is our first all electric offering...more to follow...BTW, we'll make our last ICE vehicle in 2025"...

 

[smac]

I'd get a more warm and fuzzy feeling if Jag said to the effect "here is our first all electric offering...more to follow...BTW, we'll make our last ICE vehicle in 2025"...

They will make their last ICE vehicle when it becomes impossible not to make a profit on one, either through legislation or competitive pressure.

Elon always said his goal was to move transportation towards EV usage, even if Tesla wasn't the only option.

Personally I welcome the choice. It keeps Tesla on their toes, forcing improved Tesla's, and if the Tesla is too big / small / expensive / etc. etc. then consumers benefit too, one size doesn't fit all.

(As a side note, living not far from the factory I've seen the improvements to schools and colleges JLR are putting back into the local community with various STEM outreach programs, employment incentives for long term unemployed, and other corporate social responsibility aspects. So things aren't as black and white. I wish them the best of luck.)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm seriously considering the I-Pace for, well, something:

Jaguar tests its all-electric I-PACE on the streets of London – Full Gallery

Hard to say how the timing and competition will line things up eventually, could this be a Model S/X replacement or a future Model 3 replacement, but I like what we're seeing. I seriously like what we're seeing. Maybe time to buy my first Jag, then. For some reason I am more enamored by this than by Audi's e-tron quattro plans or by anything Tesla is working on that we have seen.

Charging speeds and range are mostly irrelevant to me, as long as they are sufficient for daily use from a home charging base.

In this age of Brexit, it may be time to dump German and go finally for a British design. I may be ready for the switch... after all, after a few winters driving Californian, anything is possible.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

The above was posted in the comments on Electrek. It looks like they gave the FF prototype sharper edges. Personally, I don't like it...but hey...I don't have to buy it.

 

[smac]

@Anxiety Ranger.

Well I'm going to the Geneva motor show this weekend specifically to take a look at it.

Given it has no SpC network, I can't see it being a threat to the Model S/X as a primary car for most people. However for a second car in an S/X household (or even an ICE one) I think it could be just the ticket.

It's a reasonable amount smaller than the S which for my primarily urban driving has appeal, and to me at least it's an attractive car.

Yes I'm a Luddite and still like grilles, faux or otherwise, on my cars.

What is interesting is they seemingly are quite a bit further along in taking this to production than just the concept / show cars.
2018 Jaguar I-Pace: All the details and fresh pictures of electric Jaguar SUV

I pulled the details from our government site for the number plate on the "production spec" car, and it actually was built in February this year (and is fully road legal).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thanks for the views and insights @smac, I always enjoy our exchanges!

Given it has no SpC network, I can't see it being a threat to the Model S/X as a primary car for most people. However for a second car in an S/X household (or even an ICE one) I think it could be just the ticket.

It's a reasonable amount smaller than the S which for my primarily urban driving has appeal, and to me at least it's an attractive car.

I'm not so sure about that, I have speculated on this quite a bit on other threads (e.g. Model X 5 Seat Deliveries) recently and I just can't see lack of Superchargers as a showstopper for people who want an EV and are choosing between a large battery Tesla and a large battery competitor. Is it a competitive advantage for Tesla? Of course. But a vastly bigger one has been the (so far) unique feature of a large battery...

Large battery is much more important than Supercharging, for those who can charge either at home or at work, and who are not constant roadtrippers. As we make the point on TMC, most charging can be done at home/work when sleeping/working. If the battery is large enough to offer everyday practicality, and you have such a charging place available to you, the rest is easy for many people.

I would definitely be able to use a non-Supercharger EV as a primary car and I can see a lot of other people being able to do it too, as long as they have that home or work charging base. But a small battery car would be too cumbersome. And, of course, as you say, for a second car this market expands even more dramatically...

We shall see, of course, but I speculate the lack of large battery options has been a much more limiting factor than any lack of Supercharging. Besides, third-party charging network is expanding all the time too. On the flipside, it remains to be seen how the expansion of EV usage will impact Supercharger and third-party charger availability - roadtripping with an EV may remain cumbersome for some time to come. Luckily I don't think that is such a big deal.

IMO the big thing here is: I don't think many, perhaps not even most, people need to be able roadtrip all that often. For those few times they do, they may have some ICE available still for some time at this end of the market (maybe a secondary ICE car). When choosing between a Tesla and some other EV, things like the interior features may play a more prominent role for these people, because you sit inside that car all the time and you may roadtrip only rarely...

Yes I'm a Luddite and still like grilles, faux or otherwise, on my cars.

Personally I don't like fake grilles, but also don't like Tesla interior quality... A fake grille will not be a deciding factor for me. I just hope they use the grille for air-intake at least so it isn't completely faux. So, my Model S basically has one and I-Pace can have it too, no problem. A quality interior, now, that would be nice to have...

 

[green1]

Keep in mind that the non-tesla fast charging situation is vastly different now than it was when the S came out too. Sure, in many places it's not as good as the supercharger network, and they aren't quite as fast (though with the supercharger taper it's not as bad as you think) but there are a lot of non-tesla fast chargers now, and with cars like this launching, that situation will only improve to the point where the supercharger network is pretty much irrelevant.

Why do you think there's a market for Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter after all? it's because people can use it to go places they can't get to on the supercharger network. Think about that for a moment. There are places that you can't go on the supercharger network, but can go on another fast charge network. Now also realize that CCS is actually more common than CHAdeMO, and Teslas can't even use it.

Sure the supercharger network is currently the best long distance travel network, but it's not the night and day difference many people make it out to be, and the situation on other fast charging networks is improving far faster than Tesla is building the SC network.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Keep in mind that the non-tesla fast charging situation is vastly different now than it was when the S came out too. Sure, in many places it's not as good as the supercharger network, and they aren't quite as fast (though with the supercharger taper it's not as bad as you think) but there are a lot of non-tesla fast chargers now, and with cars like this launching, that situation will only improve to the point where the supercharger network is pretty much irrelevant.

Why do you think there's a market for Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter after all? it's because people can use it to go places they can't get to on the supercharger network. Think about that for a moment. There are places that you can't go on the supercharger network, but can go on another fast charge network. Now also realize that CCS is actually more common than CHAdeMO, and Teslas can't even use it.

Sure the supercharger network is currently the best long distance travel network, but it's not the night and day difference many people make it out to be, and the situation on other fast charging networks is improving far faster than Tesla is building the SC network.

Indeed the third-party networks are improving all the time, though of course in stall numbers and reliability are still below Superchargers.

That said, on a daily basis, even I have access to a vastly larger number of CCS and CHAdeMO charging stations nearby, than I do have Superchargers. So, I guess green1 has a point.

But again, for car use from a base (home or work) to nearby regions, it doesn't really matter much of the time. The biggest factor in the charging situation is being able to charge near-daily at your "base" (home, work etc.) and having a large battery to allow for day or few of your usual driving.

 

[Merrill]

Not bad looking but I do not get the statement that the design is from the F-Pace but changed some things so people will know it is electric. That has been the problem when you have nice designs then make them ugly so you know it is electric. Who cares, make a well designed electric vehicle that looks good.