culverwood
Member
Lets not get carried away by our prejudices. I for one think the X looks like Mr Blobby but I try not to say it here.
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Jaguar I pace preview yesterday
- Thread starter maserati
- Start date
Lets not get carried away by our prejudices. I for one think the X looks like Mr Blobby but I try not to say it here.
It's not really a prejudice, just an observation. Jaguar is not exactly the younger generation's no. 1 choice of motor is it? The odd exception, which I've never quite understood, being premiership footballers, lol! The X looks good to me, but I can see how some people don't get the ultra-aerodynamic styling (Cd 0.24 vs 0.29 on the newer Jag)
I'm 50 by the way, so I would qualify as an old fart.
What is pushing me towards the iPace is:
From seattime experience, I can tell you companies who race/develop their production models in competition tend to be better handling than their competitors, with more durable powertrains.
I'm older, and now just a hobby racer. But if were to pick an EV this year to fling around a track at amateur/fun events, gotta say, the iPace is pretty high on the list of options until Porsche or Chevrolet lets loose. Tesla has offered nothing so far.
Great marketing, but if I was looking for a weekend track car, no SUV would be on my shortlist and certainly not a heavyweight EV. I worked in motor racing (BTCC and later F1, including Jaguar ironically) and saw very little crossover from racing to production vehicles, if anything it was more the other way round. Tesla handling is actually pretty sharp, especially for a large SUV - not that I would do a track day in one! I'm sure the IPace handling will be good too, but it's still a heavy SUV, not a racing car.
Maybe it is just me, but I don't get the comparison between i-Pace and MX, it should be against the MS surely?
Yes the i_Pace rides a bit higher off the ground, but it is still essentially a 5 seat car, not an MPV.
Yes the i_Pace rides a bit higher off the ground, but it is still essentially a 5 seat car, not an MPV.
Not too many people in the 'younger generation' able to drop £100K on a new car either, so may be Jaguar have the right niche ...
Honestly, it should probably be the 3 out of Tesla's current lineup. From what I've read, I believe the i-Pace is almost exactly the same size, except it's a few inches taller so it can pretend to be an SUV, and the interior and cargo space is similar too.
Of course, the i-Pace is AWD, and the 3 isn't - yet.
You can't track a Model S very long. It overheats quickly and does not have enough brakes. But perhaps more important it has lift at both ends. The faster you go, the less grip you have.
The chicken and the egg thoughts on 'race on Sunday, sell on Monday' favors companies who do competition testing. The stresses are far higher, and engineering cycles occur quicker. Even if a concept like disc brakes first appeared in early cars, tanks, and aircraft, it was the track that brought them into wide use after a Jaguar with disc brakes won LeMans.
Cars today can come with race derived parts. Spool Valve dampeners, flying car logic, dual clutch semiautomatics, digital differentials, carbon ceramic brakes, dataloggers, etc.
In the case of the iPace, perhaps it does have sufficient cooling and brakes as sold to have some fun with.
I guess you have a point, but try not to be unreasonable. So not taking 1.5% into account is 'not doing the maths properly'?
I'd got different logic in my own head, and put it out there for clarification, not to have my head bitten off.
Now I need to go to sleep
I guess you have a point, but try not to be unreasonable. So not taking 1.5% into account is 'not doing the maths properly'?
I'd got different logic in my own head, and put it out there for clarification, not to have my head bitten off.
Now I need to go to sleep
Hold on, you are trying to tell me that a fully loaded 6 seat, 22" wheel MX 75D costs £116K in total (still no idea how you got to that figure?) and I'm being unreasonable in making an effort to show you the real cost? Okay, lol! The point is that unless you down-spec an iPace or buy it outright in cash, it's not really any cheaper than an MX and can quite easily be more expensive on finance. It certainly would have been in my case! The only reason people assume the iPace is cheaper is because the base model looks competitive before you add any sensible options. Then there's the expensive finance and poor guaranteed residual value. All smoke and mirrors and the more you look at it, the more expensive it actually looks against the bigger MX.
Let's take the budget none-optioned £63,495 iPace for example, that literally nobody will ever order! 18" wheels, solid paint (black or white), no sunroof, clear glass, cheap seats, gloss plastic trim, none of the tech driving features, no cold weather pack, no front fog lights, no folding heated mirrors, no air-suspension, no powered tailgate, not even floor mats:-
£11K deposit and £695 a month over 4 years. So that would have saved me £87 a month over my 7-seater fully loaded MX.
If we look at a more sensible mid-range iPace SE, base price is £69,495 and without going mad on the options, it ends up at £77,675
£11K deposit and £992 a month over 4 years. That is most definitely more expensive than my MX (+£210 per month to be exact).
Okay so Tesla finance has recently gone up to 4.9%, but you can still be driving a fully loaded (metallic paint, premium + carbon interior, PUP, EAP) 5-seat MX for £11K and £926 per month. That's still a little cheaper than a well specced mid range iPace due to the better finance rate and higher guaranteed residual. The iPace is only genuinely cheaper for cash buyers looking at long term ownership. And so it should be for a smaller class car.
Of course there is no direct comparison in size, but Jaguar are pushing that comparison just to show the performance advantage! Look, our smaller, lighter 5-seat SUV is faster to 60 mph than Tesla's much larger 7-seater SUV (providing it's not a P model of course). The S is very much a conventional saloon in format, while the iPace is a stylised crossover. You are right, they are more comparable in their interior space and the S is faster in that comparison too. The S should also have a lower CofG and therefore probably out-handle the iPace comfortably too.
That's true, the S is certainly not a track car. The upside is that it has a Cd of 0.24 vs the iPace 0.29 so will be more efficient for high speed cruising on the road. Do we know if the iPace actually produces any downforce or less lift than an S? I haven't seen any figures for either car except for Cd.
I've spent my whole life in motor-racing as a professional engineer. What you have to understand is that race teams rarely have any meaningful connection with their road-going counterparts and are usually totally separate companies contracted by the manufacturer. You mention carbon ceramic brakes, which are a great example of something that was not developed in racing. Carbon-carbon brakes (as used in F1) were developed in the aerospace industry and are not suitable for use on road cars (or by weekend track day warriors). Ceramic brakes (which are quite different) were developed by the manufacturers and their suppliers to give greatly extended life in normal street use and many of those are not even recommended for track use. One excursion into the kitty litter and they are history! The only companies I know of that truly have integrated road and track development are Porsche, Ferrari and McLaren. The rest (and that certainly includes Jaguar) simply contract all their motorsport activities to third party racing companies who have little or no interaction with the road car engineers. I know this from direct experience over the last 25 years. There are snippets of crossover (damper technology perhaps), but those can go in both directions. Also note that a lot of electronic systems routinely used in road cars are now actually banned from many racing categories, F1 being the ultimate example.
Maybe, maybe not. But I would expect it to be a relatively poor choice as a track day car. I'm sure it will handle well enough on the road for what it is, but I would suggest that a first generation EV is not what you want for a weekend track car. FWIW the Porsche Macan is the current benchmark for mid-sized SUV handling and I very much doubt the iPace will match up to the Macan in handling terms. It will be too heavy with it's EV platform and Porsche have superior in-house motorsport knowledge as above. That's not to say the iPace won't make a better everyday car, as the Macan is very cramped inside for its class. Again FWIW I'd take the iPace over a Macan at this point, but not for its handling performance, more for its EV drive and relatively roomy interior.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I'm only a layman, but there is something fancy about airflow through the "fake grill" which directs it under the bonnet and up over the windscreen / roof. Struck me as being potentially clever. Sawn-off backside might help too?
I bought a Renault Espace just after Renault became F1 champions. The Dealer Sales-person wasn't exactly stimulating company, but take that into account
:Me: "Any nice F1 features on this?"
Him :" The fuel filler cap"
Actually he was right, the fuel filler FLAP incorporated a rubber stopper thing and there was no actual fuel filler cap to remove, just flip-open the flap and stuff the nozzle in. So I probably could have used one of those jumbo bottles, used in F1 back then when refuelling was allowed
It had keyless entry too ... bit tangential to say that F1 had that too though ...
The iPace does have aero features that should reduce lift. We will have to see. They added a large wing in the back for the eTrophy series, so maybe needs more. The power to weight on the iPace, and the kinds of tracks you can run without a cage required, will keep the top speeds to perhaps 110mph(?). I've tracked production cars up to 4650lb (oddly a favorite fat-lady was the Cadillac CTS-V Station Wagon, that was a riot) and the weight is not really a problem. Many supercars are 3800lb today wet with driver.
But in my best Dirty Harry voice: "A man's got to know his limitations" applies to all street cars. With no cage, you shouldn't be playing too rough. A car that lacks brake fade, and doesn't get tail happy is a safer car to abuse.
My 2010 Corvette had carbon ceramic brakes stock as do several newer cars. The relatively affordable 2014/2015 Camaro Z/28 had them stock as well. While they are very streetable even when cold (the same can't be said for the tires), the cost benefit ratio isn't there. It's that situation where the last 10% costs 10x more. It was just an example of a technology refined on the track.
I have no illusions I'll be wiping out sports cars with an iPace on a track. But if you want an EV that will can run a few laps now and then with your friends, it might be the best choice in 2019. We will see. It's cheap enough.
Will do, with video and datalogger. I see it as just another station wagon with the wrong designation. To me an SUV is a Suburban.
BUT... It all depends on supply and demand. They might not actually be available to the general public and I have no relationship with Jaguar at all. In theory, I can order one sometime after June.
I'd already be abusing a Model 3 but my invite is hold still.
Over in the UK, it's definitely an SUV rather than an estate. I realise definitions are quite different over in the US.
The first SUV design was sold in 1935. It is a pickup truck frame with an enlarged and enclosed passenger body put on top. It was not called an SUV for another 55 years. It was called a Suburban and sold as a station wagon. It remained in a class of one for most years. It is perhaps the longest production run of any passenger vehicle, certainly the longest span of a named model.
The term Sport Utility at first applied to open top or convertible vehicles built for rough terrain. Many were small by today's standard, such as the Suzuki Samurai or the Bronco. Starting about 1990 today's style of SUV were labelled as such and abbreviated.
Relative sizes:
CTS-V Station Wagon - 192″ L x 73″ W x 58″ H, four door, rear hatch, 2 row seating.
Jaguar iPace - 184″ L x 75″ W x 61″ H, four door, rear hatch, 2 row seating.
Suburban - 224″ L x 81″ W x 74″ H, four door, rear doors, 3 row seating. (9 passenger max)
I saw it in the flesh tonight at my local dealer. Plenty of people crawling over it and it certainly looks well put together and, subjective I know, felt like premium quality in the cabin.
Very traditional cabin interior but that will appeal to plenty who feel the Tesla is too spartan and minimalistic, or even too techy. I imagine for some just the huge leap away from ICE is enough, and I heard a few people comment that “it looks like a Jag” in a pleased sort of way.
It’s not for me, lots of reasons, not least of all the boot wouldn’t accommodate my golf clubs and leccy trolley
All credit to JLR for bringing it to market, but the long distance charging sales patter worried me. The sales guy, before he knew what I drove, tried to convince me the public charging network was brilliant, especially on the motorway where there were at last 4 charging stations at services. Apart from that, no mention of the 50kW limitation and that, coupled with unrealistic range expectations could easily lead to significant dissatisfaction, and a return to ICE.
Still, Rome wasn’t built in a day and it’s a step in the right direction.
Gave my uncorked 75D a 0-60 blast, quite pleased with the results.
Very traditional cabin interior but that will appeal to plenty who feel the Tesla is too spartan and minimalistic, or even too techy. I imagine for some just the huge leap away from ICE is enough, and I heard a few people comment that “it looks like a Jag” in a pleased sort of way.
It’s not for me, lots of reasons, not least of all the boot wouldn’t accommodate my golf clubs and leccy trolley
All credit to JLR for bringing it to market, but the long distance charging sales patter worried me. The sales guy, before he knew what I drove, tried to convince me the public charging network was brilliant, especially on the motorway where there were at last 4 charging stations at services
. Apart from that, no mention of the 50kW limitation and that, coupled with unrealistic range expectations could easily lead to significant dissatisfaction, and a return to ICE.Still, Rome wasn’t built in a day and it’s a step in the right direction.
Gave my uncorked 75D a 0-60 blast, quite pleased with the results.
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