Jaguar I-Pace

[AnxietyRanger]

The Jaguar I-Pace BEV has been discussed previously on this forum (e.g. on the Jag gets in on the "EV's don't have to look stupid" Market. thread), but I thought it would be good to start a dedicated thread to the car itself - similar to other BEVs on this sub-forum. Maybe that will also help avoid cluttering of the various Model 3 threads.

At least in Europe and U.S., Jaguar has started to register interest for the car - meaning one can sign-up with the different country subsidiaries of Jaguar, who will then also hook you up with the nearest dealer. At least one member, @smac, has mentioned on TMC of having already paid a deposit for this car. So, definitely Jaguar is a bit further along in their canvassing than, say, the Audi/Volkswagen group who are merely talking one way at this stage.

I would be interested to hear if others than @smac have signed up on the I-Pace yet? I am considering it as well, though of course this early in the game it is just a gesture in most places, not yet really an actual commitment.

Back in November The Verge said I-Pace is aimed at Model X, but I am not convinced of that - indeed the fact that it does not seem to be, keeps me interested since I'm predominantly looking for a second car. First of all, it is smaller. Second, what we now have heard of it pricing suggests 10-15% above a similar F-Pace, which - unless Jaguar only sticks to highest end of the F-Pace comparison - should allow for also a price range below Model X.

Anything is possible, though, in this transition stage of the market. I-Pace may well be delayed and/or priced upwards of expectations. It is also clear the concept shown has many concept car qualities to it, so changes in interior styling etc. can be expected.

I'll close this opening post with a great quote from @smac. Let's keep talking.

Well my take from now actually seeing the car is it is very nice in the metal. The way the top of the grille actually is a diversion channel under the front portion of the hood is neat way to accomplish the balance of brand identity against aero concerns. So yes it's form over function, but I think it's been dealt with intelligently, and actually adds a nice piece of hidden detail if you look closely enough (and from a low enough vantage point you can see right the way through).

It is the same all over to be honest, lots of nice touches, it's crisp, and well proportioned. Next to the Range Rover Velar (which in truth was getting more visitor attention), it clearly isn't a true SUV style, if anything it's a sort of cross between a Golf/Focus style hatch and an Evoque. For me though it pulls off a new segment you may consider as an SUVBack, without looking weird. (Who remembers how the BMW X6 took some getting used to at launch.)

It's definitely a smaller footprint to the Model S, which is no bad thing in Europe. We will have to wait and see how this translates into the interior space.

Interestingly Magna (the firm building the IPace) were also exhibiting, in their case a prototype REX EV, that used a fuel cell. (Not sure that's a good idea btw, but it was interesting to see they are investing R+D in the EV space).

As for the dates, I was assured 2018 to the UK market by JLR.

One take away from the show was almost without exception every manufacturer had a charge point somewhere on their stand. EV'ification is definitely gaining pace, albeit with PHEV's being by far the most represented.

 

[smac]

@AnxietyRanger I don't know of any other Tesla owners that have a deposit, I know my dealership had taken 5 pre-orders, and I've contacted a fellow UK EV forum owner and his dealership had a few more.

I do know of at least one Tesla owner that is contemplating one as a car for his wife (swapping an M3 reservation for it), but hasn't committed yet.

IMHO People keep comparing it to a Model X. Personally I think this is wrong, it really is likely to be more of a Model Y competitor. (It's Audi Q5 size, not Q7)

Now of course a huge amount of the appeal will come down to price. The range topping F-Pace is £53K without options, so I'm adding some fat to the 10-15% and thinking c.£70k. For reference the cheapest other 90kWh AWD car available is the Tesla 90D, with no options it costs £86k here.

 

[Jayc]

New thread and two posts... I think you have answered your own question regarding the potential for prospective Tesla buyers considering an I pace instead. Just doesn't cut it and I said so. Nuff time wasted.

 

[techmaven]

@AnxietyRanger
Now of course a huge amount of the appeal will come down to price. The range topping F-Pace is £53K without options, so I'm adding some fat to the 10-15% and thinking c.£70k. For reference the cheapest other 90kWh AWD car available is the Tesla 90D, with no options it costs £86k here.

At the moment, given the information we have, you will pay for a 90 kWh battery in the I-Pace but get 60 kWh battery range. The reported efficiency is absolutely terrible... much worse than a Model X. Also, we don't know the cycle life and the efficacy of its battery thermal management systems. Given that it is a Model 3 size, the Model Y is the actual competitor but like the Bolt, it will probably be available for a year before the Y. But the 3 will be on the market at the same time with greater range for lower price.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

New thread and two posts... I think you have answered your own question regarding the potential for prospective Tesla buyers considering an I pace instead. Just doesn't cut it and I said so. Nuff time wasted.

I think it speaks more of the U.S. centricness of this forum. I-Pace is a non-factor in the U.S. so far. We shall see when things get closer.

But if you like, we can go back to discussing I-Pace in Model 3 threads...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

At the moment, given the information we have, you will pay for a 90 kWh battery in the I-Pace but get 60 kWh battery range. The reported efficiency is absolutely terrible... much worse than a Model X. Also, we don't know the cycle life and the efficacy of its battery thermal management systems. Given that it is a Model 3 size, the Model Y is the actual competitor but like the Bolt, it will probably be available for a year before the Y. But the 3 will be on the market at the same time with greater range for lower price.

I am not sure those things matter that much.

What matters is everyday practicality and that requires sufficient range to go about a couple of days of normal and some unexpected driving, without charging - and charging at home/work some of the time. When those options are out there, it will come down to other things.

So far the biggest issue is that no other large battery BEV has really been available, but Tesla. Once people can buy alternatives, I can well see them also doing so.

But we shall see if/when it ships, of course.

 

[Yggdrasill]

The I-Pace won't get towing: Jaguar I-Pace Won't Be Rated To Tow, Says CEO

That should be pretty bad for sales in Norway. It should still sell in significant numbers, if it's sufficiently cheaper than the Model X, but towing would have really helped selling cars. Right now, you have the choice between a Model X, aaand... nothing.

And if the Model Y comes along with towing, I-Pace sales would likely drop to almost zero.

 

[Lokolo]

The I-Pace won't get towing: Jaguar I-Pace Won't Be Rated To Tow, Says CEO

That should be pretty bad for sales in Norway. It should still sell in significant numbers, if it's sufficiently cheaper than the Model X, but towing would have really helped selling cars. Right now, you have the choice between a Model X, aaand... nothing.

And if the Model Y comes along with towing, I-Pace sales would likely drop to almost zero.

Interesting. Looking at the stats you can see the horrible range you do get when towing.

But are they really aiming this car at those that want or need to be able to tow? Its doubtful, so I don't think the Model Y will be the reason sales of I-Pace drop to zero.

Personally, as a Model3 reservation holder. I am torn to splashing out on an I-Pace or stick to the Model3. I hate the X.

 

[smac]

But we shall see if/when it ships, of course.

I strongly think it's now a definite when, not an if.

It was spied whilst Jaguar were filming an advert. Why would they bother if they weren't going to sell them

To see why it is so important to them and why they were a surprise entrant into the EV race (a surprise to me at least when I first heard the announcement) you need to understand the backstory:

JLR have a serious problem with upcoming EU CO2 regulations, and are in the precarious predicament that they are on the cusp of breaching 300k EU vehicles, at which point they get far stricter penalties for exceeding fleet averages. Unlike all the other premium brands they have no small city cars in their line up to lower their average, so they were faced with a ceiling on growth (in effect imposing an internal cap on sales), trying to introduce a super-mini, or go for an EV.

Personally I'm glad they opted for the EV route.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@smac I'm not sure anymore what I was thinking when I posted that "if/when", but I'm sure it was more standard disclaimer stuff than any representation of my actual feelings on the matter. I do expect the I-Pace to ship.

Thanks for the update and backstory!

 

[Yggdrasill]

JLR have a serious problem with upcoming EU CO2 regulations, and are in the precarious predicament that they are on the cusp of breaching 300k EU vehicles, at which point they get far stricter penalties for exceeding fleet averages. Unlike all the other premium brands they have no small city cars in their line up to lower their average, so they were faced with a ceiling on growth (in effect imposing an internal cap on sales), trying to introduce a super-mini, or go for an EV.

Personally I'm glad they opted for the EV route.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So basically, @smac, you are saying the I-Pace is a compliance car like the Bolt!

 

[Yggdrasill]

Interesting. Looking at the stats you can see the horrible range you do get when towing.

But are they really aiming this car at those that want or need to be able to tow? Its doubtful, so I don't think the Model Y will be the reason sales of I-Pace drop to zero.

Personally, as a Model3 reservation holder. I am torn to splashing out on an I-Pace or stick to the Model3. I hate the X.

Towing is quite important in Norway. 85% of car owners have at least one car with towing. (For families with two cars, you usually have one larger family car with towing, and one smaller city car.) Range isn't critical - but it should at least be able to tow appliances, building materials and trash within city limits.

The lack of towing is the the biggest flaw of the Model S - all the competitors have towing. If the Model S had towing, it would probably be significantly more popular than the Model X in Norway.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Interesting data on towing in Norway, @Yggdrasill. Thank you for shairing.

I can understand Model S being successful despite of this, due to the massive tax benefits, which it clearly is. Though could not the same be said of I-Pace, assuming tax benefits apply to it as well? I guess it depends on what the competition does, e.g. if Model 3 has towing, but I-Pace does not... and if Model 3 gets towing, I guess they'd have to introduce it to Model S as well?

Personally I'm not sure about the improtance of towing in the early BEV market, which we are still living in. I guess I would place more value on having a hatchback than having towing, even in places like Norway, but that would obviously just be a guess on my part.

(Finally a personal - completely irrelevant - anecdote, I have a loaded 6-seater Model X, so I have towing, but I don't expect ever to use it. It is, in fact, only the second car of mine with towing and even the other one I never used, it came with the car... certainly this won't be an issue with myself and I-Pace.)

 

[smac]

So basically, @smac, you are saying the I-Pace is a compliance car like the Bolt!

One could argue the Model S/X are compliance cars too, just ones where the mainstream manufacturers outsourced production to Tesla

On a less flippant note though, right now in early stage BEV adoption, IMHO regulatory push is probably more of a driver than consumer pull.

For those in the US that don't follow this stuff quite as closely, the flurry of European brand EV's (IPace/ EQ/ E-Tron etc.) all penned for release in 2019 is somewhat coincidental with this stuff:

Reducing CO2 emissions from passenger cars - Climate Action - European Commission

To date some have just paid the penalties, or bought excess credits from others, but that is becoming ever harder,. 2019 is a hard cutoff, and marks the start of €95 fine for every gram of CO2 over the limit. The cost to manufacturers will be huge if they don't clean up their emissions.

What I find interesting about this is actually it levels some of the differences between US and EU regulatory requirements when considering EV's. When European manufacturers have to produce proper EV's for domestic sales, ones which also happen to play nice in CARB states, is it still a compliance car?

We don't say cars fitted with seatbelts, or have airbags, or run on unleaded gas, or .... are compliance cars, All of these items at one point were optional, and manufacturers have tended to leave it to the last minute to comply with the regulations to squeeze the most profit out of older designs. My view is EV's are headed the same way.

All of which means, at least to me, 2019 is going to be a stellar year for EV's

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@smac

My opinion:

I genuinely don't think the Bolt is a compliance car, so no, I won't consider I-Pace or Audi e-tron quattro as compliance cars either. I guess in a away the jury is still a bit out on Bolt, as its slow ramp is not yet clear where it is headed, but I expect I-Pace and Audi e-tron quattro to definitely be different beasts. The companies need these cars to compete in the EV field.

For me the compliance car moniker is best left for very limited production and availability cars. Otherwise, as you say, we would have to include such a huge range of cars that legislation constantly is pressuring to improve in some manner as compliance vehicles.

 

[Lokolo]

Towing is quite important in Norway. 85% of car owners have at least one car with towing. (For families with two cars, you usually have one larger family car with towing, and one smaller city car.) Range isn't critical - but it should at least be able to tow appliances, building materials and trash within city limits.

The lack of towing is the the biggest flaw of the Model S - all the competitors have towing. If the Model S had towing, it would probably be significantly more popular than the Model X in Norway.

Sorry to take it a bit off topic, but why does a lot of towing happen in Norway? I assume something to do with the weather!

 

[Yggdrasill]

Sorry to take it a bit off topic, but why does a lot of towing happen in Norway? I assume something to do with the weather!

The weather isn't really the reason. It has more to do with the fact that most people live in detached houses and have cabins, both of which require a lot of maintenance. And cars and labour are expensive. Basically, most people can't afford to own a car just for towing or carrying large items, and they can't afford to pay anyone to maintain their homes and cabins, so they have to to it themselves. This includes getting stuff delivered. Most places that sell large stuff (like Ikea) will lend you a trailer for a few hours for free, while getting stuff delivered is expensive.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Interesting data on towing in Norway, @Yggdrasill. Thank you for shairing.

I can understand Model S being successful despite of this, due to the massive tax benefits, which it clearly is. Though could not the same be said of I-Pace, assuming tax benefits apply to it as well? I guess it depends on what the competition does, e.g. if Model 3 has towing, but I-Pace does not... and if Model 3 gets towing, I guess they'd have to introduce it to Model S as well?

Personally I'm not sure about the improtance of towing in the early BEV market, which we are still living in. I guess I would place more value on having a hatchback than having towing, even in places like Norway, but that would obviously just be a guess on my part.

(Finally a personal - completely irrelevant - anecdote, I have a loaded 6-seater Model X, so I have towing, but I don't expect ever to use it. It is, in fact, only the second car of mine with towing and even the other one I never used, it came with the car... certainly this won't be an issue with myself and I-Pace.)

The Model 3 being a sedan is definitively a big negative for Norway, while the towing is a big positive. I think both the i-Pace and the Model 3 will do well in Norway, for different reasons. But if the i-Pace had had towing, it would have done much better.

The Audi etron (or whatever they're calling it) is supposed to have towing. This should be a quite good car for Norway. Basically the perfect choice for those who want a large BEV with towing, and who hates the falcon wing doors of the Model X.

 

[cizUK]

To put it in perspective, the F-Pace outsells all other Jaguars put together
And the I-Pace is designed to be largely better than the F-Pace (Smaller outside, larger in, better performance, better tech etc)

So I would guess the I-Pace could potentially outsell the F-Pace if Jaguar got some important factors right (e.g. 100+ kW charging etc)