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Jaguar I-Pace

Very interesting... 84.7 kWh usable.

Of course, 400 kg less than a Model X for a Model 3 sized vehicle isn't that big of a deal. Model X is about 2,500 kg with a 100 kWh pack, which is actually 102.4 kWh with 98.4 kWh usable. That puts the I-Pace at 2,100 kg, or 330 kg more than the Model 3 LR which has a 80.5 kWh pack, 75 kWh usable. Given that the i-Pace has almost the exact same exterior dimensions as the Model 3, that means the I-Pace is pretty heavy... and with a bigger frontal area (taller roof) and a much higher drag coefficient of 0.29 (claimed by Jaguar), the efficiency will be

Given that, with LG NMC 111 cells, GM has restricted charging c-rates to less than 1C, what will Jaguar do with their LG cells? Did they engineer sufficient battery cooling to charge higher than 1C? Hopefully, as GM's charge rate is really low.

Still, with first year's production slated at 13,000 units, not really seeing much of a global impact from the i-Pace overall. But it will be big for Jaguar and Tata. This puts Tata in a very good position to scale up.

i had the impression the ipace is bigger then model 3?
 

techmaven

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Feb 27, 2013
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No idea about the technicalities. What I know is that my 85 (400V) charges at max 120 kW (well I think the max I've ever seen on my car is 119 kW), and that 350V 75's charge at 100kW or so max. Glad to know the Superchargers could give even more kW, but currently the Tesla cars won't accept it. So I'm just assuming that if Jaguar says their cars will accept 150 kW and CCS charging stations will indeed deliver 150kW, that would be good news.

No, that's not what it means. For example, on a 100 kW charging point, an Ampera-E (Bolt) can take 56 kW peak. A Hyundai Ioniq can plug into a 100 kW CCS and it can tolerate 65 kW peak. For the i-Pace, it means accepting more than 200 amps (100 kW CCS). That will likely mean a theoretical limit of 130 kW with typical pack voltages, but again, there may be a lower limit based on thermals and charging c-rate. GM limits their Bolt/Ampera-E to less than 1C. The Hyundai Ioniq can take 2.3C peak, but is not optimized for capacity. Given the size of the pack, Jaguar has to use cells designed for capacity. That puts it closer to 1C than 2.3C. We'll see, but it isn't a given that using a 150 kW charging point means the car can take 150 kW. Tesla can claim the Tesla Superchargers are 185 kW (500 volts x 370 amps) if they used CCS v1 style nomenclature.
 
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techmaven

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i had the impression the ipace is bigger then model 3?

In height and rear trunk space, yes. Not in width and length where it is very close to the Model 3. It's basically a Model Y design... I am worried that given the size and capacity, with the likely NMC cells they are using, the cooling capacity won't be enough for cycle life and high speed charging characteristics.
 
No idea about the technicalities. What I know is that my 85 (400V) charges at max 120 kW (well I think the max I've ever seen on my car is 119 kW), and that 350V 75's charge at 100kW or so max. Glad to know the Superchargers could give even more kW, but currently the Tesla cars won't accept it. So I'm just assuming that if Jaguar says their cars will accept 150 kW and CCS charging stations will indeed deliver 150kW, that would be good news.



Really? Wow, I never saw that elsewhere. Please explain as that would really be great info.
This was leaked when the epa specs came out, tesla has not announced this as they anti-sell the 3’s
 

KarenRei

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Jul 18, 2017
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More news cropping up:

  • Jaguar to look at a cheaper base model with less performance and smaller pack once the launch cars are sold.
  • 150kW CCS Charging for the car, and plans in place to upgrade the UK CCS charging network.
  • The car weighs 400kg less than a Model X!!
  • You can make the car growl to warn pedestrians (Good to see a dash of humor ;) )

Jaguar likely to offer cheaper fleet version of I-Pace electric car

I can see this being a serious problem here in the UK for Tesla in the period between IPace launch and the RHD Model 3 becoming available. I wonder what they can do to the S/X line-up in the intervening period?

  • That article says nothing about the charge rate
  • I read the "less performance and smaller pack" line differently - I read that as "expect the first cars to be a lot more expensive than people are expecting"
Seriously, why is Jaguar being so coy with the pricing? That bugs me. Or maybe I'm just spoiled by Tesla being so open with their pricing...
 

AnxietyRanger

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Aug 22, 2014
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Your AP2 videos are just great but they obviously won’t please those who wake up every morning angry about the lack of a rain sensor in their car. Different perspective.

Might I suggest dropping this line of thinking. It will mislead you and not lead to anything good. @buttershrimp operates within the bounds of parody, you sound just mean - or worse still, bitter.

Anyway, back on topic: that 150kW news is simply great! I cannot understand lukewarm reactions to it. Even if it couldn’t be applicable to me (and it isn’t as I’m not trading my Tesla in any time soon) it still makes me happy for the EV revolution as a whole. Again, some only think of their own case. Different perspective, and to each his own.

As your message clearly refers to me, a comment: I'm always thinking of the macro, part of which is the charging question. (That I was explaining my personal situation in this thread, isn't intended to detract from that.)

And IMO the macro is (again, just my opinion): large battery BEVs are superb, already today, for 90+% of driving for a massive amount of people who can charge at home or at work during night/day and whose main driving scenario is within 100 miles of home. This makes them superior to ICE, absolutely already today. This is the bit, IMO, to be excited about I-Pace already today! The value proposition of a large-battery BEV is huge, even with snail-charging.

Future-proofing for charging is great, but the car already is superb even without it (context: great < superb). That's not a lukewarm reaction, that is simply putting things in perspective: the really, really important thing IMO about BEVs is how they revolutionize the everyday. We're still away from the revolution for the travelling salesman, but no matter, the large battery BEV has already revolutionized everday driving for a large group of people.

See, I don't think many people (myself included, but not limited to myself) need fast charging to be super excited about cars like I-Pace. We're already super excited about them. This was my opinion when we were discussing 50 kW and it is my opinion with 150 kW, especially as long as the latter still lacks a network.

I think it would be terribly disingenious of me to shift my opinion simply because I-Pace is turning out to be even better than expected. It was always looking to be superb.
 

Carl

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AR - my message doesn't refer to you at all. It refers to the funny feeling I have that when people say there are 150 kW chargers in Europe the reply is "so what, no cars" (and that wasn't you, I think) and when we get the -imho- great news that there's finally a 150 kW-charging-capable car the reaction is "so what, no chargers". You were part of those who had the latter reaction, but my feeling was simply generic - "what, no enthusiastic reactions at all"? And it's true that while I personally couldn't care less how fast the I-Pace can charge (I'm not going to trade in my Tesla any time soon) I do find it great that there's something real in terms of another sexy, quick, long-range, fast-charging EV finally coming to maturity. BTW: you (not I) started this thread and until ten days ago you stated in your signature that the I-Pace was possibly your next car.
 
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Jeff N

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Oct 31, 2011
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Given that, with LG NMC 111 cells, GM has restricted charging c-rates to less than 1C,
What is your evidence that GM is using LG NMC 111 cells (in the Bolt EV, I assume)? I’ve never seen any specific chemistry or cell model identified by GM or LG but GM does call their Bolt cells “Nickel-rich” which would seem to imply a higher ratio of Nickel than a 111 chemistry.

A Hyundai Ioniq can plug into a 100 kW CCS and it can tolerate 65 kW peak.
The peak for an Ioniq Electric is (at least) 70 kW, according to people in Norway that have plugged them into one of the 100 kW CCS stations there.
 

AnxietyRanger

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Aug 22, 2014
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No way Model Y is going to be anywhere near that expensive, at least not in a base config. Maybe fully optioned out with a max-range battery pack, performance package, dual motor 4wd+air suspension, autopilot, fsd, etc, etc.

Well, Model 3's initial base config is $55k. The idea that initial Model Y production might be in the ~$60k region, especially if launched in 2018 like the I-Pace, does not sound implausible. Of course more years passing will lessen the price, as will ramp-up.

$60k for I-Pace would be very good starting price, though. I wouldn't be surprised if it costs more.
 
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Laserbrain

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Aug 15, 2015
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The new generation of CCS is built around a 350 amp plug. At 360 volts, that's 125 kW.

The newest generation of CCS charges with up to 350 kW. This is the Porsche version:


350kW CCS chargers are currently getting build all over Europe along the highways by a BMW, Daimler, Ford and Volkswagen with Audi and Porsche joint venture:

http://www.ionity.eu/assets/20171127-ionity-en.pdf

Now all we need is a car capable of charging with 350kW...
 
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KarenRei

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Jul 18, 2017
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Well, Model 3's initial base config is $55k. The idea that initial Model Y production might be in the ~$60k region, especially if launched in 2018 like the I-Pace, does not sound implausible. Of course more years passing will lessen the price, as will ramp-up.

$60k for I-Pace would be very good starting price, though. I wouldn't be surprised if it costs more.

Model 3's initial base config is $49k, not $55k ($35k + $9k + $5k). And that comes with PUP and the LR battery. Model X has a base price 25% more than Model S; if we assume the same ratio applies, then Model Y would have a base price of $44k (versus the claimed $80k for I-Pace, if Anticitizen's memory is correct and that's for the base version). And if anything, I'd expect sub-25%; Model X is so much more than Model S because it's a more complicated vehicle; I doubt they'll complicate the Model Y nearly so much.
 

techmaven

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Feb 27, 2013
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The newest generation of CCS charges with up to 350 kW. This is the Porsche version:
[...]
Now all we need is a car capable of charging with 350kW...

Again, dissect what that actually means. And we do need to see evidence of near 4C charging... maybe it is coming sooner rather than later, but we haven't seen anything near those charging c-rates. Also, it is still 350 amps. So without a DC-DC converter, at typical pack voltages that can still take a high c-rate, we're talking 365 volts x 350 amps = 128 kW. That's 128 kW when plugged into a 350 kW EVSE. They get 350 kW by using a pack voltage of 1,000 volts. No production pack is designed for that kind of voltage. The standards themselves aren't fully ratified... some feel that the handles can take 370 amps, like ABB. Tesla's have already been shown to take 370 amps, but those vehicles have lower pack voltages. At more typical pack voltages, that's 365 * 370 = 135 kW.
 
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techmaven

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Feb 27, 2013
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If the non-Tesla manufacturers are able to get a reasonable highspeed CCS network running, how will they stop slower charging cars like the Bolt/Ampera from clogging up spots. Would they have complex billing that tries to deal with time and energy?

They probably can't and won't. Which means the 350 kW high speed charging network will be clogged by vehicles with < 70 kW charging. What is worse is that the Bolt can't take > 1C, which means the typical long charge cycle would be 50 minutes to 1.25 hours.
 

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