Jaguar I-Pace

[smac]

A Model Y at twice the price with nicer interior.

Have you seen the Model Y price list ?

In all seriousness, as I've been saying for some time now, in base trim the IPace will undercut the Model S. At least in a number of parts of Europe (NL "confirmed", but I think in the UK it's very likely too). I think this is impressive given the size of the most expensive part, the 90kWh pack.

Now quite what a Model Y with 0-60 in 4s, AWD, and a 90kW pack would cost is anyone's guess. Mine would be it too is close to the entry level Model S. Maybe Tesla could undercut this, but then they'd be giving up some margin.

The other thing that is interesting is JLR are doing the rounds with the fleet press (bear in mind >50% of new UK cars are fleet vehicles), and with that they are suggesting a future cheaper model, 2WD with a smaller pack.

 

[alloverx]

It will be a while before the model-Y will be exported from China to the US.

 

[Sunlight]

I'm deeply disappointed with these prices if they are accurate! As Tesla does not have a presence in South Africa and Jaguar is solid here, I was accepting that an i-Pace was a decent option as originally Jag was touting 10-15% up on the similar sized F-Pace so I was working on 40k - 63k pounds sterling which was manageable.
Now the prices are rumoured (?) to be 72k-94k quid - hell that is going on double the F-Pace. Are Jag mad or is it reasonable? It won't do anything to 'promote' electric vehicles.
Maybe Jag were thinking of the lower prices but the car has turned out so nicely that they believe they can milk the market and go for what they can get..........
I am sick of waiting for a suitable EV so will now have to look at the Audi e-Tron if it is a more reasonable price (but Jag may have 'skewed' the market)
We have to have 220mile range where we live so there is nothing available yet (no Bolt coming either)
We have looked at CPO Tesla S but I'm scared to bring one here without Tesla presence as any serious hiccup will be a disaster!

 

[smac]

@Sunlight

Some of the articles I've seen are based on Dutch pricing and extrapolating out using straight € to £ exchange rates.

However a Base Model S is €86,585 in NL, a base Model S75D is £64,700 in the UK. That would imply a 1.34 GBP EUR rate, which is nowhere near the current 1.13 actual rate.

If we simplistically took the €82k figure and used 1.13, then you do indeed get a starting price of £72k. However if you used the same Dutch S to Dutch IPace notional figure of 1.34, that would imply a price of £61.5.

Of course this is an over simplification too, there will be local market tax break points, psychological tripping points (the whole x9,999.99), and frankly what they can get away with when it comes to setting prices in various countries.

In the UK one key figure is £60k, where eligibility for plug-in grants disappear. This _could_ motivate JLR to hit £59,999.

However this is somewhat moot, unless you intent to do a grey import of one from the UK. Because JLR South Africa will set a price that suits that market.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@smac Do we know for sure the base I-Pace has a 90 kWh pack? If it does, it certainly goes a long way explaining the price.

 

[J1mbo]

In the UK one key figure is £60k, where eligibility for plug-in grants disappear.

Since when?

 

[smac]

@Jimbo March 2016:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/502056/plug-in-grant-rate-changes-2016.pdf

 

[smac]

@Jimbo and for clarification on that point, while full BEV's are currently subject to "derogation" (a word chosen very specifically), and it's still up to local authorities if they want to include /exclude certain vehicles from some perks and benefits based on price.

My point is more one around tax policies setting local market pricing structures. (Like the infamous "naked german Model S's")

At some point I expect UK to follow suit with the German policy makers, and apply price caps on luxury BEV's for politically motivated reasons.

I am sure when the UK's first ULEV lane opens, and I'm zipping along in my £100k car past the majority of people who simply can't afford to move away from ICE's stuck in traffic, eyebrows are going to start being raised.

Admittedly it's the PHEVs that will take most of the stick, especially with stuff like the i8 / Panamera, so OLEV were right to target them first. (IMHO). There is absolutely nothing stopping me putting my car in full sport mode, and just hooning past everyone with the fake external engine sound speaker playing, not that I would.

 

[smac]

@smac Do we know for sure the base I-Pace has a 90 kWh pack? If it does, it certainly goes a long way explaining the price.

Given the range I think it's likely:

One interesting point though is they are aiming for 10 year battery life, I do wonder if this means they have "topped" and "tailed" the pack like the Volt/i3, so it's not all usable ?

As for smaller pack variants, this are supposedly on the cards too:

Jaguar likely to offer cheaper fleet version of I-Pace electric car

 

[J1mbo]

@Jimbo March 2016:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/502056/plug-in-grant-rate-changes-2016.pdf

From 1 March 2016:

8. Are the same cars still eligible for the grant after 1 March?

No – to maximise the number of everyday motorists who can benefit, the grant will no longer apply for category 2 and 3 vehicles that cost £60,000 and above. However, vehicles that meet the emissions qualification and are only excluded from the grant because of the price remain genuine ultra low emission vehicles.

To encourage zero emission driving, all category 1 vehicles will remain eligible for the full grant of £4,500.

I-Pace is a BEV, so they'll get the 4.5k. Can't see the Gov rowing back on this in the forseeable future, especially given their need to keep British *cough* *cough* industry sweet.

 

[smac]

@J1mbo I agree for the timescales we are talking about, 2018-2020, I can't see them messing too much with the BEV tax policies, especially as you note given JLR's undoubtedly strong voice in the UK, even if it has a slight Indian accent.

The slight exception to that would be if JLR can squeeze in the IPace for under £60k. Conceivably they could put pressure on UK government to remove the derogation.


I can see them doing a bit of a shake-up in 2020, bringing the mess that is VED (40k), BIK (unlimited) and OLEV (60k) stuff more inline.

Certainly with BIK the proposals for the electric range bands on top of the CO2 figures seem to point this way.
(Government publishes company car tax bands for 2020/21)

I stumbled across a UK whitepaper link a while back, which had very interesting language in it. It was talking about a holistic vehicle taxation strategy between VED and BIK (which has in effect diverged). They had a specific term / acronym for it, and I'm racking my brains to remember it, because I can't find the document again.

Anyway. Enough talk about UK taxation policies, it will bore even the most ardent US tax buffs

Back somewhat on topic, my view is the car will be priced differently in different markets. Just like the diesel F-Pace which pre-tax is more expensive in Holland than the UK.

IOW it will be based on what a local market can bear, which is a complex picture, and not one that can be adequately performed doing straight currency conversion, so we will just have to wait until March to really find out.

 

[Sunlight]

Thank you all for that useful info. Let's wait and see but I'd not want to end up with a Hyundai/Kia/Chinese thing at the moment but.....

The i-Pace is very appealing in many ways (actually after a Model S the most appealing of anything I've seen mooted or announced).

If the price is at all 'country variable' due to local constraints, then by logic it should be cheap(er) in South Africa (with its currently sluggish economy) but surprisingly, cars tend to be OVER-PRICED here for whatever reason. Also so far there are no EV credits/tax breaks......

South Africa is living in sort of denial about EVs (it being a very conservative ICE car orientated culture.) Also like many other countries our national power generation is a bit marginal and conventional wisdom here equates EVs with blackouts and getting stuck miles from anywhere! Our generally good main car magazines seem to believe that EVs will only become 'viable' in about 2040-50 and until then SA will be 'only petrol/diesel' (there has hardly been a diesel backlash here yet)

But when I stand behind my Jeep diesel I nearly puke with the fumes! (this may be mental EV conditioning as I didn't really notice it before)

 

[Burnt Toast]

My biggest problem with the E-pace is the price/size ratio. Generally in the automotive world, the price of the car within a range is determined by the size. The Model S and X fit this model well, commanding similar prices to equivalently sized premium cars (eg Merc CLS/S). Regardless of the way in which Jaguar marketing want to spin the E-pace, it is not in the same size class (or form factor) as a Model S or X. It is a step down in size (at best its the size of the F-pace). The F-pace in size is a step down from X5 classed vehicles, and while Jag has had some success in pushing the boundaries (and in my opinion over pricing the F-pace), the disparity in size/price for the E-Pace is too much. Realistically, the E-Pace is closer in size and form factor to a VW Golf than a Model X. Certainly there should be a price premium for EV tech and the performance of the car, but the launch price on this car, I feel, will see initial success by early adopters, but a distinct tail off in sales after that.

 

[Lokolo]

My biggest problem with the E-pace is the price/size ratio. Generally in the automotive world, the price of the car within a range is determined by the size. The Model S and X fit this model well, commanding similar prices to equivalently sized premium cars (eg Merc CLS/S). Regardless of the way in which Jaguar marketing want to spin the E-pace, it is not in the same size class (or form factor) as a Model S or X. It is a step down in size (at best its the size of the F-pace). The F-pace in size is a step down from X5 classed vehicles, and while Jag has had some success in pushing the boundaries (and in my opinion over pricing the F-pace), the disparity in size/price for the E-Pace is too much. Realistically, the E-Pace is closer in size and form factor to a VW Golf than a Model X. Certainly there should be a price premium for EV tech and the performance of the car, but the launch price on this car, I feel, will see initial success by early adopters, but a distinct tail off in sales after that.

OK well for starters, we're talking about the i-pace, not the e-pace. The e-pace is a small compact SUV non-electric vehicle. This is of similar size to a golf.

The i-pace has always been marketed as the as an f-pace equivalent. When first announced it was an electric version of an f-pace like car which would cost approximately 20% more than it's f-pace equivalent.

The thing is - Tesla's are big cars. Yes they suit the US roads well but here in the UK, and I imagine much of Europe, they are a squeeze. If I ever see an S parked up I always cringe at how often doors must hit! This is not the norm over here. So actually the i-pace everywhere but the US is a normal sized car for what it is.

I would say its pretty in between a golf and an X in terms of size, if anything more towards the X. And I would say you can't really compare it to anything out there on the market.

 

[smac]

@Burnt Toast by that rationale a Hummer X2 should be worth loads more than a Ferrari.

Truth of the matter is the Model S is more e class than s class.

The IPace will be the first 200+ mile BEV which looks nice, has a non plastic interior and appeals to a broader market.

A bit like the Model S

 

[Burnt Toast]

OK well for starters, we're talking about the i-pace, not the e-pace. The e-pace is a small compact SUV non-electric vehicle. This is of similar size to a golf.

The i-pace has always been marketed as the as an f-pace equivalent. When first announced it was an electric version of an f-pace like car which would cost approximately 20% more than it's f-pace equivalent.

The thing is - Tesla's are big cars. Yes they suit the US roads well but here in the UK, and I imagine much of Europe, they are a squeeze. If I ever see an S parked up I always cringe at how often doors must hit! This is not the norm over here. So actually the i-pace everywhere but the US is a normal sized car for what it is.

I would say its pretty in between a golf and an X in terms of size, if anything more towards the X. And I would say you can't really compare it to anything out there on the market.

Sorry, realised that it was the i-Pace, not the e-Pace driving past a JLR dealership yesterday. But just because it suits are environment better (I don't buy this argument, as there are a *sugar* tonne of Range Rovers kicking about), it doesn't deride my argument. Cars are priced in class sizes. The i-Pace is not a big car. It's layout is like a raised Golf. It is nowhere near the size of a 7 seat X, and is drastically over priced.

 

[Burnt Toast]

@Burnt Toast by that rationale a Hummer X2 should be worth loads more than a Ferrari.

Truth of the matter is the Model S is more e class than s class.

The IPace will be the first 200+ mile BEV which looks nice, has a non plastic interior and appeals to a broader market.

A bit like the Model S

No, the Model S is basically the exact same size as the CLS. It is a half class up from the E in terms of size.

 

[RobStark]

@Burnt Toast by that rationale a Hummer X2 should be worth loads more than a Ferrari.

This comparing dissimilar cars from dissimilar brands that actually proves the rule.

Within a brand the larger car cost more, the smaller cars cost less.

Comparing comparable cars from comparable brands the same size cars cost about the same.

3 Series vs C Class vs A4 etc.

Jaguar is not in Ferrari's class but it is in Teslas.

And Jaguar's compact BEV CUV is priced near Tesla's full size BEV CUV.

No, the Model S is basically the exact same size as the CLS. It is a half class up from the E in terms of size.

Model S is about the same LENGTH as CLS.

Width

E Class 70.3"-73.7"
CLS 74.1"
S Class 74.76"-75"
Model S 77.3"
Range Rover 78.1"

And there is a shitload of "Rangies" in merry ol' England's tiny narrow roads.

 

[Lokolo]

F-Pace - 4,731 mm L x 1,936 mm W x 1,667 mm H
I-Pace - 4,680mm L x 1,890mm W x 1,560mm H
E-Pace - 4,395 L x 1,984 W x 1,649 H

BMW x5 - 4,880 L x 1,985 mm W x 1,762 mm H

VW Golf - 4,258 mm L x 1,780mm W x 1,492 mm H
Mazda3 - 4,465 mm L x 1,795 mm W x 1,465 mm H

Model S - 4,979 mm L x 1,964 mm W x 1,445 mm H
Model X - 5,052 mm L x 1,999 mm W x 1,684 mm H
Model 3 - 4,690 mm L x 1,930 mm W x 1,440mm H

S Class - 5,140 mm L x 1,905 mm W x 1,496 mm H
E Class - 4,846 mm L x 1,852 mm W x 1,429 mm H

Take what you want from them. The golf is nothing like an i-pace though. The golf is a small hatchback (my Mazda3 which is a clear hatchback is even bigger!) the i-pace is more of an SUV, the height gives is that. The e-pace is classed as a compact SUV and is still bigger than the Golf (and the i-pace is even larger).

You can also see the width sizes of the Teslas. Horrible imo. I love the Model S and 3 but those widths scare me. We have a few bridges near me which are width restricted to 6 ft 6, this is 1980mm. An X would not be able to cross the bridge. It's primarily there to stop lorries and vans! The Model S would be very tight as well. Mirrors in!

 

[smac]

And there is a shitload of "Rangies" in merry ol' England's tiny narrow roads.

There's a sh!tload more Range Rover Sports and Evoques though

The S Class really is a rarer sight here, as you rightly point out Range Rover is the go to vehicle in that price/status bracket. Big sedans like the 7 series / A8/ S Class really aren't that favoured. (Which is a testament to quite how good a car the Model S is to be honest)

However the buying decision is also skewed by the size. My brother just bought a loaded RRS, his wife couldn't face the parking issues of the Vogue. He wanted the Vogue, but happy wife = happy life.

From personal experience of the Model S, I can see her logic. It's width also does not come without downsides when facing a typical UK parking lot with much narrower bays

I think at least for the UK market, the IPace dimensions will fit in well with the broadest customer appeal. If it displaces some Velars/F-Paces/Evoques as second household vehicles used for family duties by the more well off we'll have gotten those ICE vehicles off the roads and JLR will fill their production quota.