James Locke on Tesla's Removal of Ultrasonic Sensors and Radar

Munro & Associates estimate that Tesla will save over $100/car by removing ultrasonic sensors. @SteelClouds @nebusoft and James Locke discuss why they think Tesla removed ultrasonic sensors, and radar as well.

This is a clip from Tesla Motors Club Podcast #24. The full podcast video is available here:

 

[THEbuz]

Sonar works even if someone sticks gum on your camera, or rain, or snow, or....

Also every single reliable, good, mission-critical, life-protecting safety mechanism on planet earth comes with redundancy. Sonar + Vision is reassuring because one works when the other doesn't and they cross-check. Single points of failure are bad. And don't tell me vision is good enough as is -- when natural weather conditions knock out my camera, I am not buying the whole "it's just like your eyes" thing. I don't need to scrape ice off my eyes.

I used to be perplexed about this, wondering why TESLA would opt to go with a vision-limited solution framework, rather than employing (long-term) these supplemental technologies (LiDAR, sonar, USS, etc.) to provide an optimally safe and effective autonomous driving experience.

However, it then occurred to me that the actual wheels of the vehicle are weather limited. When my own eyesight is limited by blizzard conditions, so—too—are the wheels limited where the literal rubber meets the road. After all, it’s not as if providing enhanced “vision” to the TESLA EV will realistically translate into enhanced travel at higher speeds during extreme weather conditions—albeit, this certainly would provide enhanced safety measures. Musk and TESLA must think that all of that extra tech hardware is not necessary in order to provide optimal safety, even during adverse weather conditions.

 

[Dewg]

I used to be perplexed about this, wondering why TESLA would opt to go with a vision-limited solution framework, rather than employing (long-term) these supplemental technologies (LiDAR, sonar, USS, etc.) to provide an optimally safe and effective autonomous driving experience.

However, it then occurred to me that the actual wheels of the vehicle are weather limited. When my own eyesight is limited by blizzard conditions, so—too—are the wheels limited where the literal rubber meets the road. After all, it’s not as if providing enhanced “vision” to the TESLA EV will realistically translate into enhanced travel at higher speeds during extreme weather conditions—albeit, this certainly would provide enhanced safety measures. Musk and TESLA must think that all of that extra tech hardware is not necessary in order to provide optimal safety, even during adverse weather conditions.

No amount of AI will solve for this. The solution is - don't operate in these conditions.

 

[THEbuz]

No amount of AI will solve for this. The solution is - don't operate in these conditions.

Fair point—that’s assuming the goal is ZERO deaths, but that has never been the goal. If it were, then no one would be allowed to operate a motor vehicle. AI notwithstanding, I definitely think there is a solution to exceed human performance in those conditions, as to safety and fewer human casualties.

 

[Dewg]

Fair point—that’s assuming the goal is ZERO deaths, but that has never been the goal. If it were, then no one would be allowed to operate a motor vehicle. AI notwithstanding, I definitely think there is a solution to exceed human performance in those conditions, as to safety and fewer human casualties.

With respect, a highly trained police officer in a state of the art police interceptor couldn't handle it. I'm going to just avoid that whole area when it freezes over.

 

[sleepydoc]

With respect, a highly trained police officer in a state of the art police interceptor couldn't handle it. I'm going to just avoid that whole area when it freezes over.

If you look, that squad car was essentially stopped and started sliding - telling me the road must have been glare ice. The only thing that will be effective at all there is studded tires.

 

[THEbuz]

With respect, a highly trained police officer in a state of the art police interceptor couldn't handle it. I'm going to just avoid that whole area when it freezes over.

Oh, my!
I hadn’t watched the video until now.
Just saw the thumbnail.
Total respect.

 

[Resist]

Have you seen the video that showed a guy methodically covering each camera and observing how Tesla reacts? It's impressive. If a camera goes down or is blinded, the other cameras pick up the slack. Cover the B-Piller, and the forward wide-angle camera takes over the function. Cover the wide-angle forward camera and the B-Pillars take over the function.

And yet, when even one of my side cameras claim they can't see then FSD beta is greatly degraded, if it functions at all. More sensors for redundancy is better, that's just a fact and one day Elon will concede to this.

 

[Dan_Foster]

What's the point of introducing first how Tesla can get more profit by ripping consumers off, whether in a small or huge amount?

Taking away functions and hardware (front passenger lumbar controls, mobile connector, USB-data port, radar, USS...) would boost profit, but how does that benefit consumers?

Losing sales tends to tank profits. People are becoming wise to Tesla’s constant bs. Firmware can’t make up for missing hardware! For C’s sake, the automatic wipers have NEVER worked well without a dedicated rain sensor. And now ultrasonic parking sensors and radar are gone too?! And the Model S is far more expensive than just a few years ago. Good luck with all this, Elon—Mercedes-Benz is about to eat your lunch.

 

[THEbuz]

Losing sales tends to tank profits. People are becoming wise to Tesla’s constant bs. Firmware can’t make up for missing hardware! For C’s sake, the automatic wipers have NEVER worked well without a dedicated rain sensor. And now ultrasonic parking sensors and radar are gone too?! And the Model S is far more expensive than just a few years ago. Good luck with all this, Elon—Mercedes-Benz is about to eat your lunch.

Respectfully, I think you both are missing the point. Elon’s eyes are fixed on the FSD robo-taxi future.
- They removed lumbar support for the front passenger because almost no one ever used it.
- Replacing USB data with USB charging ONLY—except in the glovebox—speaks to the FSD robo-taxi future, wherein TESLA owners would NOT want just anyone having access to their EV’s data via USB.
- Rain sensor point is fully valid, as I share in your frustration. (They can equip my Model Y with a windshield wiper heater but not a working rain sensor?????)
- For me, USS is a non-issue. Again, one teensy step backward to ultimately gain a huge leap forward is well worth it, IMO.
- I don’t think TESLA is experiencing a dip in sales or top line revenue, as demand continues to outweigh supply, thanks to delays in battery cell production.

 

[Dewg]

Rain sensor point is fully valid, as I share in your frustration. (They can equip my Model Y with a windshield wiper heater but not a working rain sensor?????)

I'll go farther than you in that the wipers work great if you're thinking about FSD. It's about the cameras seeing the best.

 

[sleepydoc]

Respectfully, I think you both are missing the point. Elon’s eyes are fixed on the FSD robo-taxi future.
- They removed lumbar support for the front passenger because almost no one ever used it.
- Replacing USB data with USB charging ONLY—except in the glovebox—speaks to the FSD robo-taxi future, wherein TESLA owners would NOT want just anyone having access to their EV’s data via USB.
- Rain sensor point is fully valid, as I share in your frustration. (They can equip my Model Y with a windshield wiper heater but not a working rain sensor?????)
- For me, USS is a non-issue. Again, one teensy step backward to ultimately gain a huge leap forward is well worth it, IMO.
- I don’t think TESLA is experiencing a dip in sales or top line revenue, as demand continues to outweigh supply, thanks to delays in battery cell production.

The FSD/Robo-taxi future is still quite distant. As Elon said, it turns out FSD is a harder problem to solve than they expected. In the mean time they need to sell cars and FSD subscriptions to stay in business. For that they need to stay focused on the companies next door.

As far as the ultrasonic sensors being a teensy step backward for a huge leap forward, just how does removing them allow a huge leap forward? Tesla itself admits that currently Tesla Vision is less capable and they added no new or improved sensor capabilities so at best they can do exactly what they could without removing the USSs.

Looking at demand/sales in the current climate is folly, IMO. Supply constraints mean nothing is at a steady or normal state for Tesla, for other manufacturers or for the market as a whole.

 

[Dan_Foster]

FSD LOL

 

[Resist]

- They removed lumbar support for the front passenger because almost no one ever used it.

- For me, USS is a non-issue. Again, one teensy step backward to ultimately gain a huge leap forward is well worth it, IMO.

Elon claims no one ever used the front passenger lumbar. He makes up his own facts because no one ever asked me and I've never heard about a survey from Tesla asking their customers about this. This was purely a move to save on production costs!

The ultrasonic sensors are extremely helpful for tight garage parking and when Autopilot gets too close to the vehicle in the next lane. In fact, it save me from a collision because the vehicle in the next highway lane started veering into my lane and me. The sensors went off alerting me, while Autopilot did nothing. But it's reckless to remove a proven sensor system when Tesla's vision only system isn't cutting it yet. So again, the got rid of these sensors just to save on production costs.

 

[THEbuz]

I'll go farther than you in that the wipers work great if you're thinking about FSD. It's about the cameras seeing the best.

I wouldn’t say that the auto-wipers work great at all, FSD notwithstanding. How do you figure they work great, relative to FSD? I know the wipers are automatically set to “AUTO” when AP/EAP/FSD is engaged, but that means nothing if they wipe my windshield when there is ZERO rain to speak of and DO NOT wipe my windshield in an increasing drizzle. FSD or not, they still suck!

 

[THEbuz]

The FSD/Robo-taxi future is still quite distant. As Elon said, it turns out FSD is a harder problem to solve than they expected. In the mean time they need to sell cars and FSD subscriptions to stay in business. For that they need to stay focused on the companies next door.

As far as the ultrasonic sensors being a teensy step backward for a huge leap forward, just how does removing them allow a huge leap forward? Tesla itself admits that currently Tesla Vision is less capable and they added no new or improved sensor capabilities so at best they can do exactly what they could without removing the USSs.

Looking at demand/sales in the current climate is folly, IMO. Supply constraints mean nothing is at a steady or normal state for Tesla, for other manufacturers or for the market as a whole.

“…huge leap forward…” in terms of the penultimate advent of FSD.

There are other automakers that make wonderful EV’s, but none are at the scale that TESLA is at now…yet.

No other auto-maker can boasts its own rapid-charging network, except TESLA.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think any other EV maker is making money on every unit sold—but TESLA is. (FORD, RIVIAN, GM—all are still losing money on every EV sold.) They’ve gotten the price to make a TESLA down to around $36k (I think I read), and although Model X costs twice what I paid for my Model Y, the COGS between those two models for TESLA is negligible. Aside from the falcon wing doors, there are few features the S/X has that my Y does not. (Okay, larger screen + 1 in the back!) Models S and X are premium product for TESLA for sure!

 

[THEbuz]

Elon claims no one ever used the front passenger lumbar. He makes up his own facts because no one ever asked me and I've never heard about a survey from Tesla asking their customers about this. This was purely a move to save on production costs!

The ultrasonic sensors are extremely helpful for tight garage parking and when Autopilot gets too close to the vehicle in the next lane. In fact, it save me from a collision because the vehicle in the next highway lane started veering into my lane and me. The sensors went off alerting me, while Autopilot did nothing. But it's reckless to remove a proven sensor system when Tesla's vision only system isn't cutting it yet. So again, the got rid of these sensors just to save on production costs.

“Survey”??? Really??? LOL
Do you not know that every electronic component is monitored by TESLA via their proprietary telematics? Elon could certainly be lying, but I doubt he’s making up a number, because they know everything about your TESLA…and mine. They know what time you drive it; what speed you drive; when you hit the brake; etc.—and, yes, Elon knows how many front passengers have used their lumbar support adjustment and how often. It’s the McBurger factor. McD’s pulled back on all of their low-selling products in the beginning to focus on the products that produce 87% of their top line sales. Elon took the same approach with front passenger lumbar.

How can you say “In fact, it save me from a collision because the vehicle in the next highway lane started veering into my lane and me. The sensors went off alerting me, while Autopilot did nothing.”??? You don’t know what is doing what under the proverbial hood of your TESLA. It is one cohesive system. My 2023 MY has no USS, yet I have seen that same squiggly line around my quarter panels go off when another car veered into my lane. (I’m not referring to the blue AP lane lines, but rather the curved lines go off with a proximity alert.) My point is that you just know you got a proximity alert. You don’t know if it was the camera/s or the USS that triggered that proximity alert. I back out of my garage every day and park in a parking garage at work 5 days per week. I have never once had an issue with getting too close to another vehicle or the wall.

 

[Dewg]

I wouldn’t say that the auto-wipers work great at all, FSD notwithstanding. How do you figure they work great, relative to FSD? I know the wipers are automatically set to “AUTO” when AP/EAP/FSD is engaged, but that means nothing if they wipe my windshield when there is ZERO rain to speak of and DO NOT wipe my windshield in an increasing drizzle. FSD or not, they still suck!

Oh, I was going on people complaining they wipe too fast at the smallest sign of moisture. Dry wipes are a different issue. Personally I only ever get dry wipes directly after a car wash. I just don't use AP or FSD for a few hours after a car wash to make sure all the sensors are totally dry.

 

[sleepydoc]

“…huge leap forward…” in terms of the penultimate advent of FSD.

What are you talking about? Who (other than Elon) ever said FSD needed to be vision only? As I’ve said many times before, I care about actual function. If Tesla can do it with only cameras, great, but they haven’t shown that. They haven’t even shown that it’s feasible and there are very good reasons why it may not be. What they have shown is that they’re willing to sacrifice functionality while they try an idea that they haven’t fully worked out yet.

Do you not know that every electronic component is monitored by TESLA via their proprietary telematics?

Great, but just because I don’t adjust something doesn’t mean the adjustment is useless. The seat in my MY stays in the same position every time I get in because I’m the one who drives it. Does that mean they can eliminate the driver’s seat adjustment? Lumbar support is usually adjusted to comfort and then left so the lack of adjustment is meaningless.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think any other EV maker is making money on every unit sold

You weren’t talking about profits, just demand.

Oh, I was going on people complaining they wipe too fast at the smallest sign of moisture. Dry wipes are a different issue. Personally I only ever get dry wipes directly after a car wash. I just don't use AP or FSD for a few hours after a car wash to make sure all the sensors are totally dry.

Unfortunately I get dry wipes all too often. The problem is FSD and AP force you to have the wipers on auto so the only way you can turn it off is by disabling FSD/AP.

The thing is, dry wipes are more than an annoyance - if you have a bit of salt spray they will cause it to smear, making your vision significantly worse and if the window is completely clear they can actually cause scratches in the glass.

 

[nvx1977]

- Replacing USB data with USB charging ONLY—except in the glovebox—speaks to the FSD robo-taxi future, wherein TESLA owners would NOT want just anyone having access to their EV’s data via USB.

I hadn't heard about this one. So if I wanted to connect a game controller to play some of the games that require a controller, do I have to unplug the USB stick and use that port? Or is there a 2nd data port in the glove box?

 

[Dewg]

Unfortunately I get dry wipes all too often. The problem is FSD and AP force you to have the wipers on auto so the only way you can turn it off is by disabling FSD/AP.

Do you also have poor performance with AP and FSD Beta? I'm wondering if there is a correlation between poor AP and bad auto wipers. I have great auto wiper performance, and never have dry wipes outside of just after a car wash. And I have good experiences with AP.