James Locke on Tesla's Removal of Ultrasonic Sensors and Radar

Munro & Associates estimate that Tesla will save over $100/car by removing ultrasonic sensors. @SteelClouds @nebusoft and James Locke discuss why they think Tesla removed ultrasonic sensors, and radar as well.

This is a clip from Tesla Motors Club Podcast #24. The full podcast video is available here:

 

[sleepydoc]

Do you also have poor performance with AP and FSD Beta? I'm wondering if there is a correlation between poor AP and bad auto wipers. I have great auto wiper performance, and never have dry wipes outside of just after a car wash. And I have good experiences with AP.

It’s hard to compare since what I consider to be ‘good’ performance may be your horrible performance or vice versa but in general I have pretty good luck (excepting 69.3.1).

 

[THEbuz]

Oh, I was going on people complaining they wipe too fast at the smallest sign of moisture. Dry wipes are a different issue. Personally I only ever get dry wipes directly after a car wash. I just don't use AP or FSD for a few hours after a car wash to make sure all the sensors are totally dry.

Good advice. Thank you!
I am more upset about these dang dry wipes because right now we have that dirty, gritty snow slush, and my windshield is coated with grime, and then my Model Y dry wipes it all over my windshield.

 

[THEbuz]

What are you talking about? Who (other than Elon) ever said FSD needed to be vision only? As I’ve said many times before, I care about actual function. If Tesla can do it with only cameras, great, but they haven’t shown that. They haven’t even shown that it’s feasible and there are very good reasons why it may not be. What they have shown is that they’re willing to sacrifice functionality while they try an idea that they haven’t fully worked out yet.

Great, but just because I don’t adjust something doesn’t mean the adjustment is useless. The seat in my MY stays in the same position every time I get in because I’m the one who drives it. Does that mean they can eliminate the driver’s seat adjustment? Lumbar support is usually adjusted to comfort and then left so the lack of adjustment is meaningless.

You weren’t talking about profits, just demand.

Unfortunately I get dry wipes all too often. The problem is FSD and AP force you to have the wipers on auto so the only way you can turn it off is by disabling FSD/AP.

The thing is, dry wipes are more than an annoyance - if you have a bit of salt spray they will cause it to smear, making your vision significantly worse and if the window is completely clear they can actually cause scratches in the glass.

You are correct that Elon referred to a “vision-only system”, but as he is the CEO of TESLA, the whole of TESLA is onboard with that. You decry that it’s not working, but you really need to refer to the FSD beta testers, many of whom would disagree with you, sensors notwithstanding.

Not sure why you are going on about lumbar support for drivers. My 2023 Model Y has lumbar support for the driver but not for the front passenger. AFAIK, TESLA has never removed lumbar support for the driver seats.

My point about TESLA being the only EV-maker that is profitable on every unit sold is that they can continue producing and selling EV’s forever, laughing all the way to the bank, while legacy auto-makers can only lose money making EV’s for so long—demand be damned.

If you’re so unhappy with your TESLA, why don’t you sell it and buy a Priusssssss…???

 

[THEbuz]

I hadn't heard about this one. So if I wanted to connect a game controller to play some of the games that require a controller, do I have to unplug the USB stick and use that port? Or is there a 2nd data port in the glove box?

I just watched a YouTube video on this, so I am referring only to that, not firsthand knowledge, but it appears that the only data USB is the lone USB-A in the glovebox. All others are charging only. If you wish to use a wireless controller, then either figure out how to connect to your TESLA via Bluetooth (I doubt this will work) or swap out the center console USB module for a module that supports data. (The YouTube video I watched was a how-to video on swapping this out. He tested it out with a wireless game controller, and it worked!)

 

[Dewg]

Good advice. Thank you!
I am more upset about these dang dry wipes because right now we have that dirty, gritty snow slush, and my windshield is coated with grime, and then my Model Y dry wipes it all over my windshield.

Would RainX help?

 

[Phlier]

I hadn't heard about this one. So if I wanted to connect a game controller to play some of the games that require a controller, do I have to unplug the USB stick and use that port? Or is there a 2nd data port in the glove box?

There's only the one USB-A port in the glovebox, but using a USB hub that supports data should allow you to plug in all the devices you need.

 

[THEbuz]

Would RainX help?

Who knows…???
Willing to try it.
I think it is caused by grit and grime caking up on the cameras, such as after it has snowed.

 

[sleepydoc]

Would RainX help?

IME RainX helps water/liquid bead up and run off better but doesn’t do so much for road salt/spray. Wipers need enough liquid to work and if you have mostly-dried (or completely dried) road spray on your windows you just end up with smears.

For the side cameras I don’t think it would help much for the same reason.

 

[sleepydoc]

You are correct that Elon referred to a “vision-only system”, but as he is the CEO of TESLA, the whole of TESLA is onboard with that. You decry that it’s not working, but you really need to refer to the FSD beta testers, many of whom would disagree with you, sensors notwithstanding.

I’ve been a beta tester for the last year, so I have ample experience here but we’re not talking about FSDb, we’re talking about the ultrasonic sensors.

Not sure why you are going on about lumbar support for drivers. My 2023 Model Y has lumbar support for the driver but not for the front passenger. AFAIK, TESLA has never removed lumbar support for the driver seats.

you were claiming that since Tesla logs everything they know whether the lumbar support was being used or not And I pointed out that their logs only show adjustment, not usage, whether it‘s for the passenger seat or the driver’s seat.

My point about TESLA being the only EV-maker that is profitable on every unit sold is that they can continue producing and selling EV’s forever, laughing all the way to the bank, while legacy auto-makers can only lose money making EV’s for so long—demand be damned.

Your original point was to say that Tesla’s demand is strong despite the complaints listed by the previous poster. I was simply pointing out the folly in looking at supply and demand as a measure of success until you moved the goal posts by talking about profits. Surely you‘re not arguing that poor profits early in a model’s development mean a company should give up. Tesla lost money for plenty of years before becoming profitable - it’s a good thing Elon didn’t follow that line of thought.

Regardless of profits, the fact remains that Tesla has well known quality issues and those will become more relevant as more options become available.

If you’re so unhappy with your TESLA, why don’t you sell it and buy a Priusssssss…???

Who says I’m unhappy? I’m just correcting your mistakes for you.

 

[THEbuz]

I’ve been a beta tester for the last year, so I have ample experience here but we’re not talking about FSDb, we’re talking about the ultrasonic sensors.

you were claiming that since Tesla logs everything they know whether the lumbar support was being used or not And I pointed out that their logs only show adjustment, not usage, whether it‘s for the passenger seat or the driver’s seat.

Your original point was to say that Tesla’s demand is strong despite the complaints listed by the previous poster. I was simply pointing out the folly in looking at supply and demand as a measure of success until you moved the goal posts by talking about profits. Surely you‘re not arguing that poor profits early in a model’s development mean a company should give up. Tesla lost money for plenty of years before becoming profitable - it’s a good thing Elon didn’t follow that line of thought.

Regardless of profits, the fact remains that Tesla has well known quality issues and those will become more relevant as more options become available.

Who says I’m unhappy? I’m just correcting your mistakes for you.

Correcting my mistakes? Um—okay. Nice try, though.

If you’re an FSD beta tester, are you saying that the removal of USS has definitely affected the performance of FSDb? Does your TESLA not have USS? The removal of USS is a big picture item that relates to Elon’s long-term vision of the robo-taxi fleet, so USS relative to FSD is relevant.

You’re bitching so much about your TESLA and the company at-large that your complaints thus far have far outweighed your stated likes. It was a logical deduction on my part.

 

[Dewg]

IME RainX helps water/liquid bead up and run off better but doesn’t do so much for road salt/spray. Wipers need enough liquid to work and if you have mostly-dried (or completely dried) road spray on your windows you just end up with smears.

For the side cameras I don’t think it would help much for the same reason.

I've never been in those environments. A quick search came up with this article, if it helps:

How to Clean Windshields: Removing Winter Road Salt

If you don't know how to clean windshields, now is the time to learn. Use these tips to remove road salt from your windshield in the winter.

knowhow.napaonline.com

TREAT THE GLASS WITH WATER REPELLENT
Help your wipers by treating your windshield with a water repellent. These are applied to a clean, dry windshield and then repel water, including snow and rain. This helps keep salt from sticking to your windshield and works all year long to improve overall visibility and stop grime from building up and causing a visibility problem.

 

[Phlier]

You’re bitching so much about your TESLA and the company at-large that your complaints thus far have far outweighed your stated likes. It was a logical deduction on my part.

I really hate to get involved in this, but this is so egregiously wrong that I just had to say something...

If you look back on sleepydoc's posts, you'll find that they are extremely well balanced; he calls Tesla out on the things they need to improve, as well as the things they have gotten right. A quick read-through of his post history will show this.

The problem with Tesla (and especially Elon, the man himself) is that people tend to become completely polarized one way or the other; they either become complete cheer leaders or vapid haters, neither of which serve to help the company thrive.

Calling out Tesla's (and again, Elon's) mistakes are a completely valid way to help the company. They need to know the areas they need to improve in, and as customers and share holders, we are in the perfect position to bring these areas to their attention.

I'm as big of a Tesla fan as you can get. But I don't hesitate to call Elon/Tesla out on the things that they need to improve. I WANT Tesla/Elon to succeed. But they aren't going to if things like quality control, customer service, etc. aren't addressed.

No one gets everything right all the time. And now, with every automaker squarely setting Tesla in their sights, it is time for Tesla/Elon to get as much right as possible. Elon DOES listen to what his customer base and share holders say. That's one thing they get right. It is our responsibility to make sure we feed him with the information he needs to be as successful as possible when the competition really takes hold.

Yes, sleepydoc is an FSD beta tester, and has provided a lot of very valuable feedback as such. Again, read through his post history.

Gents, we need to stop being cheer leaders and haters. If you truly care about Tesla, then help them out as much as you can. Call them on their mistakes. Let them know about problems that need to be addressed. Don't just sit there and take a "this is fine" attitude.

The BEV market is set to absolutely catch fire. The driving force behind this revolution is Elon and Tesla. But such a huge market is going to get the attention of every car maker on earth... in fact, it already has. Yes, Tesla has a huge lead. Yet big auto has the funds to throw so much cash at this that they can come from behind quickly, as evidenced by how far some makes have caught up in such a short time. Mercedes' AP software comes to mind, as well as other Chinese manufacturers of pure BEV's that have filed to sell their products here.

If Tesla hopes to truly be successful when the competition hits, they need to be doing as much right as possible. Let's help them get there.

 

[sleepydoc]

If you’re an FSD beta tester, are you saying that the removal of USS has definitely affected the performance of FSDb? Does your TESLA not have USS? The removal of USS is a big picture item that relates to Elon’s long-term vision of the robo-taxi fleet, so USS relative to FSD is relevant.

moving the goal posts again. I'll give you credit for trying. Nah, points off for not keeping a consistent logical train of thought.

No one ever said the discussion was limited to FSD - that's an addition you came up with on your own to try to make your point work. When has anyone at Tesla ever said removing USSs was related to creating a robotaxi fleet? That seems to be another artificial construct. On the subject of robataxis, when will this be available? Not in the foreseeable future and how many Tesla owners plan on using their cars as robotaxis?

Keep trying - maybe you can switch the argument to one that actually makes sense. Your original arguments (and the subsequent ones) fall flat, though.

 

[sleepydoc]

I've never been in those environments. A quick search came up with this article, if it helps:

How to Clean Windshields: Removing Winter Road Salt

If you don't know how to clean windshields, now is the time to learn. Use these tips to remove road salt from your windshield in the winter.

knowhow.napaonline.com

TREAT THE GLASS WITH WATER REPELLENT
Help your wipers by treating your windshield with a water repellent. These are applied to a clean, dry windshield and then repel water, including snow and rain. This helps keep salt from sticking to your windshield and works all year long to improve overall visibility and stop grime from building up and causing a visibility problem.

Thanks - washing it off generally isn't an issue with enough water or wiper fluid. What happens is you get a fine mist that doesn't really affect your vision much so you just leave it, then Tesla decides it wants to clean the windows and smears it around. Washer fluid generally works but often it doesn't quite get the whole windshield and/or your wipers start to wear and don't clean well. Worse yet, you run out of wiper fluid and Tesla has taken a situation that was fine (a bit of spray that didn't affect your view much) and changed it to something that's dangerous (a smeared windshield that you can barely see out of.) Invariably you tend to run out of fluid on your way to work driving into the sun...

RainX can definitely help but it doesn't really fix the entire problem. The joys of driving in the snow belt! Elon really should spend a few winters up here...

Edit: I'll add that I've never had a car with auto wipers that was perfect. Tesla is pretty much middle of the pack here but they have the added need/complication of keeping the cameras clear, something none of my other cars have had so it's hard to compare.

 

[THEbuz]

I really hate to get involved in this, but this is so egregiously wrong that I just had to say something...

If you look back on sleepydoc's posts, you'll find that they are extremely well balanced; he calls Tesla out on the things they need to improve, as well as the things they have gotten right. A quick read-through of his post history will show this.

The problem with Tesla (and especially Elon, the man himself) is that people tend to become completely polarized one way or the other; they either become complete cheer leaders or vapid haters, neither of which serve to help the company thrive.

Calling out Tesla's (and again, Elon's) mistakes are a completely valid way to help the company. They need to know the areas they need to improve in, and as customers and share holders, we are in the perfect position to bring these areas to their attention.

I'm as big of a Tesla fan as you can get. But I don't hesitate to call Elon/Tesla out on the things that they need to improve. I WANT Tesla/Elon to succeed. But they aren't going to if things like quality control, customer service, etc. aren't addressed.

No one gets everything right all the time. And now, with every automaker squarely setting Tesla in their sights, it is time for Tesla/Elon to get as much right as possible. Elon DOES listen to what his customer base and share holders say. That's one thing they get right. It is our responsibility to make sure we feed him with the information he needs to be as successful as possible when the competition really takes hold.

Yes, sleepydoc is an FSD beta tester, and has provided a lot of very valuable feedback as such. Again, read through his post history.

Gents, we need to stop being cheer leaders and haters. If you truly care about Tesla, then help them out as much as you can. Call them on their mistakes. Let them know about problems that need to be addressed. Don't just sit there and take a "this is fine" attitude.

The BEV market is set to absolutely catch fire. The driving force behind this revolution is Elon and Tesla. But such a huge market is going to get the attention of every car maker on earth... in fact, it already has. Yes, Tesla has a huge lead. Yet big auto has the funds to throw so much cash at this that they can come from behind quickly, as evidenced by how far some makes have caught up in such a short time. Mercedes' AP software comes to mind, as well as other Chinese manufacturers of pure BEV's that have filed to sell their products here.

If Tesla hopes to truly be successful when the competition hits, they need to be doing as much right as possible. Let's help them get there.

Appreciate the balanced pep talk. I don’t disagree with your points. My apologies to all forum readers and sleepydoc for my part in making this discussion devolve into chaos or mudslinging. That was not my intent from my first post/reply. Cheers and Merry Christmas to one and all.

 

[wpoyns]

You are correct that Elon referred to a “vision-only system”, but as he is the CEO of TESLA, the whole of TESLA is onboard with that. You decry that it’s not working, but you really need to refer to the FSD beta testers, many of whom would disagree with you, sensors notwithstanding.

Not sure why you are going on about lumbar support for drivers. My 2023 Model Y has lumbar support for the driver but not for the front passenger. AFAIK, TESLA has never removed lumbar support for the driver seats.

My point about TESLA being the only EV-maker that is profitable on every unit sold is that they can continue producing and selling EV’s forever, laughing all the way to the bank, while legacy auto-makers can only lose money making EV’s for so long—demand be damned.

If you’re so unhappy with your TESLA, why don’t you sell it and buy a Priusssssss…???

I am actually furious that I bought a 2023 Y with no warning from Tesla that I would not have parking assist. When I made my initial deposit on the vehicle in July 2022 the vehicle had cameras and sensors. Only when I got home from dealership and went to park the car in the garage did I figure out what was going on. Yes, they did have a button to push that warned you on your phone but my phone wasn't loading the app and they said to just wait until I got to the dealership. The guy literally pulled it up on my phone and said press here. I had no idea and there was no transparency from Tesla. I had put the car on hold until the original delivery date which was 4/1/23 and then on Dec 16th they started pestering me about taking possession before end of year I would get a credit. No one said the credit was to make up for the fact that the car isn't ready. They don't have the software and can only tell you in the near future it is coming. That means no one could test drive the car based on what might be coming. I would return this car in a heartbeat and just buy a different vehicle. This is a big class action law suit waiting to happen. Tesla has really screwed this up.

 

[Supcom]

I am actually furious that I bought a 2023 Y with no warning from Tesla that I would not have parking assist. When I made my initial deposit on the vehicle in July 2022 the vehicle had cameras and sensors. Only when I got home from dealership and went to park the car in the garage did I figure out what was going on. Yes, they did have a button to push that warned you on your phone but my phone wasn't loading the app and they said to just wait until I got to the dealership. The guy literally pulled it up on my phone and said press here. I had no idea and there was no transparency from Tesla. I had put the car on hold until the original delivery date which was 4/1/23 and then on Dec 16th they started pestering me about taking possession before end of year I would get a credit. No one said the credit was to make up for the fact that the car isn't ready. They don't have the software and can only tell you in the near future it is coming. That means no one could test drive the car based on what might be coming. I would return this car in a heartbeat and just buy a different vehicle. This is a big class action law suit waiting to happen. Tesla has really screwed this up.

You just tapped the screen without reading what you were agreeing to???

Incredible.

 

[Dewg]

I am actually furious that I bought a 2023 Y with no warning from Tesla that I would not have parking assist. When I made my initial deposit on the vehicle in July 2022 the vehicle had cameras and sensors. Only when I got home from dealership and went to park the car in the garage did I figure out what was going on. Yes, they did have a button to push that warned you on your phone but my phone wasn't loading the app and they said to just wait until I got to the dealership. The guy literally pulled it up on my phone and said press here. I had no idea and there was no transparency from Tesla. I had put the car on hold until the original delivery date which was 4/1/23 and then on Dec 16th they started pestering me about taking possession before end of year I would get a credit. No one said the credit was to make up for the fact that the car isn't ready. They don't have the software and can only tell you in the near future it is coming. That means no one could test drive the car based on what might be coming. I would return this car in a heartbeat and just buy a different vehicle. This is a big class action law suit waiting to happen. Tesla has really screwed this up.

A few people here mentioned that they received notification from Tesla via the e-mail address associated with the order that USS was not going to be available on their car at delivery. Did you not receive an e-mail? A few of those people specifically noted that after receiving the e-mail they had no recourse to cancel the order without forfeiting the order processing fee (I believe to be $250). I believe there is some discussion about getting that order fee refunded.

As for your situation, there's not much you can do at this point but wait for a software update to give you those parking features. Since your car is brand new, the used car Tesla market is still pretty hot and you may be able to sell your car with only a minimal loss, and roll those proceeds into a different EV from another mfg.

 

[THEbuz]

I am actually furious that I bought a 2023 Y with no warning from Tesla that I would not have parking assist. When I made my initial deposit on the vehicle in July 2022 the vehicle had cameras and sensors. Only when I got home from dealership and went to park the car in the garage did I figure out what was going on. Yes, they did have a button to push that warned you on your phone but my phone wasn't loading the app and they said to just wait until I got to the dealership. The guy literally pulled it up on my phone and said press here. I had no idea and there was no transparency from Tesla. I had put the car on hold until the original delivery date which was 4/1/23 and then on Dec 16th they started pestering me about taking possession before end of year I would get a credit. No one said the credit was to make up for the fact that the car isn't ready. They don't have the software and can only tell you in the near future it is coming. That means no one could test drive the car based on what might be coming. I would return this car in a heartbeat and just buy a different vehicle. This is a big class action law suit waiting to happen. Tesla has really screwed this up.

Your POV is totally valid, and I fully respect your POV. That said, I really don’t get what all the fuss is about. I, too, own a 2023 Model Y with NO USS. It offers me full view from three cameras when backing/moving, and that is “park assist” enough for me.

The one thing that pissed me off was when I opened my back hatch in my work parking garage, and the back hatch banged up against the concrete beam I had inadvertently parked under, which didn’t dent but nicked my back hatch. That was less than 2wks after D-day. Of course, I immediately set my MAX rear hatch opening height so that it opens lower to account for the beam. For some reason, I thought this geo-located so that it would remember my MAX rear hatch height at home, apart from my MAX rear hatch height at my work parking garage—but, no, it DOES NOT geolocate for this feature! It makes ZERO sense why Model Y does not do this, because a simple over-the-air update can correct this! My wife’s HONDA Odyssey allows me to adjust the MAX height of the rear hatch (w/o geolocation)! Why not add more value and enable Model Y to use geolocate for MAX height of the rear hatch!????

 

[sleepydoc]

You just tapped the screen without reading what you were agreeing to???

Incredible.

I take it you read through every EULA that you have to agree to when you update the software on your phone? And you've also read every manual for every item you own cover to cover? How about the contracts for your credit cards? You've read all of those beginning to end, right?