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Definately good news for the Model S and beyond. I was a bit sad to hear that CHAdeMO will never work with the Roadster though :crying:. CHAdeMO is all over the place in Japan and you have to think that at this point it really is going to become a global standard.
Yeah. That definitely sucks for Japan. Currently not as big a deal here since I don't think there is one within 200 miles of me but maybe some day. The Roadster is fairly bleeding edge so I'm not surprised Tesla won't support it. They should support their own standard though and convert the Roadster (officially) to the new Tesla plug/DC super charger but that also won't likely happen.
Exactly, the highway system in Japan has put CHAdeMO charge points up at service areas all over the whole country, and I just don't think there is anyway the Model S would sell here without supporting it. The nice thing about the CHAdeMO charge points is that they are right on the highway service centers every 20 miles or so, so you don't have to go out of your way at all to stop and charge, eat, shop, rest, etc.
While nothing like the number of CHAdeMO charge points now deployed, Tesla has also installed a pretty impressive array of HPC's around the country:
Tesla Japan Charging Points - Google Maps
However, these are generally off the main road since the government has been unwilling to let Tesla have space at the highway serivce areas. So in order to use most of the HPC's, you need to exit the highway, drive another 10 miles to get to the charge point, and then return to the highway. Almost also the highways are toll roads, so the total fee goes up quite a bit since you need to exit the highway once and re-enter. Beyond that, you'd be waiting for 3 hours anyway to get a decent charge into your Roadster with the HPC anyway. Of course in future, if a 400 or 500 mile battery pack were to be available, you could drive far enough to not have to worry about charging. As it is, you can still drive over 200 miles, charge overnight, and then get back on the road. Not too horrible, but certainly not optimal.
While nothing like the number of CHAdeMO charge points now deployed, Tesla has also installed a pretty impressive array of HPC's around the country:
Tesla Japan Charging Points - Google Maps
However, these are generally off the main road since the government has been unwilling to let Tesla have space at the highway serivce areas. So in order to use most of the HPC's, you need to exit the highway, drive another 10 miles to get to the charge point, and then return to the highway. Almost also the highways are toll roads, so the total fee goes up quite a bit since you need to exit the highway once and re-enter. Beyond that, you'd be waiting for 3 hours anyway to get a decent charge into your Roadster with the HPC anyway. Of course in future, if a 400 or 500 mile battery pack were to be available, you could drive far enough to not have to worry about charging. As it is, you can still drive over 200 miles, charge overnight, and then get back on the road. Not too horrible, but certainly not optimal.
What we have been told in the past is that Chademo takes controll of the charging process, and that is a problem. Tesla is not willing to relinquish the charging of their batteries to another party. Tesla has spent lots of time and $$ to develop the electronics/software to properly charge their batteries. In order to use Chademo they would have to engineer an interface to remove that controll from Chademo. If it is doable for the Model S, it should be equally doable for the Roadster. It just takes $$ for development for the interface. If there is enough call, owners could develop a solution. Once the existing roadsters are no longer under warrenty is should not be an issue.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually only the Japanese automakers and their partners (Renault and PSA) have committed to CHAdeMO. The only other major non-Japanese automaker that indicated they might use CHAdeMO is VW. All of the other makes have backed the Combo plug, which is why Tesla is focusing more on a Combo adapter.
As for where the industry is heading in general, it's way too early to say before the Combo plug is out. At this point, CHAdeMO doesn't have an insurmountable lead yet (in both vehicles and stations).
Although I do agree CHAdeMO pretty much is the only DC standard that will take hold in Japan. However, given the size of Japan, Tesla might not need to depend on CHAdeMO. A few strategically placed HPCs or Superchargers can probably cover a lot of area. It really depends on how much demand there is for the Model S/X in Japan and the demand for quick charging.
It seems to me Tesla has the capability to build a CHAdeMO adapter and will build it if the demand really calls for it, but would really rather not. The most interesting point is if they can build a CHAdeMO adapter "easily" perhaps a Combo to CHAdeMO adapter can also be built easily. That's probably a bigger deal in terms of bridging the two standards.
That's not what JB said though... I taped the whole thing and I'll get you his exact words later when I have time to listed to it again, but his basic point was this:
1) Model S supercharging is based on a standard very close to CHAdeMO and thus creating an adapter won't pose much of a problem
2) Not so for the Roadster however, and he doubts seriously that they would ever attempt it.
True maybe, but since Nissan, Toyota, and Mitsubishi are all commited to it and I'm sure Honda will be as well, it really would be hard at this point to see how it could not become "the standard" or at least "a standard". Those big boys are going to be selling a lot of electric cars and putting in CHAdeMO's all over the place.
Here is the problem with the HPC / supercharger solution for Japan -- the highway system here is not giving Tesla space at highway service areas which unfortunately, despite the valiant effort by Tesla Japan to get HPCs installed all over the country, really limits their usefulness. It's just too much a pain in the ass to have to exit the highway, drive 10 miles or more to find the charging station, drive back, and then pay another $10 to get back on the road (possibly waiting in a long line in order to do so). I can predict with pretty much certainty that the only charging solution that will EVER be offered at the service areas is CHAdeMO...that's what's been decided, and that's the way it goes.
So here we have the problem for Tesla in Japan if CHAdeMO is not supported -- people will just buy Toyotas, Nissans, Mitsubishis, and Hondas because charging them on the road is actually doable. I charged my Tesla at some of HPCs Tesla has installed, and honestly it's an adventure in itself getting off the main road and searching for them, charging, and then getting back to the main road. Most them are placed at expensive hotels, restorts, restaurants etc., where you at a minimum have to sit down for a pretty expensive meal to use the charger. The others are at gas stations where you really don't have anything to do while you wait. Way, way better than not even having them as all, but compared with CHAdeMO right on the highway, it's a losing proposition. So anyway, my prediction is that either support CHAdeMO here, or don't sell very many cars. It's their choice on that.
I still think they are going to run into regulatory issues with an adapter, not to mention the problems with 50kW adapters trailing on the ground.
Never bought the 'CHAdeMO takes over the car' thing. You can control that.
Never bought the 'CHAdeMO takes over the car' thing. You can control that.
I wouldn't assume that. Model S is designed with a DC interface for QC, but (AFAIK) not the Roadster. Maybe there are other factors too like pack self cooling capability, or even chemistry in the cells. I don't recall hearing Tesla ever indicate that the Roadster was designed for, or has provisions for DC fast charging.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If it's a locking adapter that does not trail (although admittedly harder to do for CHAdeMO), then maybe not.
smorgasbord
Active Member
I don't know the Japanese market at all, but since Model S has up to 3 times the range of any other EV (no-one else to my knowledge has broken the 100 mile barrier), you're still better off with Tesla. Taking some rough/ideal numbers from both companies (Leaf has 100 mile range, gets 80% charge in 30 minutes, Model S has 300 mile range, gets 75% charge in 45 minutes):
| Distance | Leaf/iMev # Stops | Model S # Stops | Leaf/iMev Stopped Time | Model S Stopped Time |
| 260 miles | 2 stops | no stops | 60 mins | 0 mins |
| 525 miles | 6 stops | 1 stop | 180 mins | 65 mins |
Range tops supercharger access, easily. Even with an additional 20 minutes to get to and from a Tesla Supercharger, you get to your destination 2 hours faster with Model S than with Leaf or iMev or any other 100 mile range EV. And, does anyone know what quick-charging a battery 4-6 times in one day does to a Leaf's long-term battery life?
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With the 260 mile round trip drive you are better off with your Model S, but ANY stops will be better with the other vehicles since the Tesla supercharges will be way, way off the main route in almost all cases, and much, much further spread out as well. As I mentioned, the highway system here is only allowing CHAdeMO charge points to be installed, so Tesla ends up having to put them at hotels, resorts, restaurants, etc. that are way off the main path. Think of it like this --- what if you were driving from Sacramento to Los Angeles and you had to charge at a restaurant in Half Moon Bay? That's not where you want your charge points to be, you want to have them somewhere right off I-5 where you can get to them easily right on your trip. Anyway, in Japan if you are driving a LEAF, for example, you simply stop every 80 miles or so, take a 30 minute break, and keep going with no detour, no traffic jams, and no added cost. In your Model S you drive 250 miles, then exit the highway and drive all the way to who-knows-where in order to get to your charge point. You waste time, miles, probably hit traffic, and you have to then pay again before getting back on the main road. Nobody is going to put up with this compared to the convenience they get with CHAdeMO, and this is completely irrespective of the range of the vehicle (unless it can go 500 miles maybe). Simply put -- either Tesla supports CHAdeMO or they fail in Japan which is the world's 2nd largest car market behind the USA. Sure, they did sell 50 Roadsters over here to people like me who wanted one so bad they didn't care if there was anyway to charge it on roadtrips, but they need to sell 1000's of Model S's and Model X's to succeed and I'm pretty sure they won't do that without CHAdeMO support. The good news I heard from JB though is that if they need it, they will produce an adapter and it won't be to much problem for them to do that.
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smorgasbord
Active Member
I'm guessing that's not the example you're looking for, as Half Moon Bay is further from LA than Sacramento is from LA.
Again, I don't know the Japanese market or mentality, but I don't see the logic in that statement given the range-limited competition.
Here in the US almost no-one is going to drive a Leaf more than 260 miles in a day to a single destination. Even that is driving 100 miles from home, then charge for 30 minutes, go another 80 miles, then charge for 30 minutes, then go another 80 miles and charge at the destination. I feel comfortable saying the vast majority of American drivers wouldn't be willing to do more than that, and even that would have to be on an exceptional basis (not a regular thing). That same (ideal) distance is covered with a Model S and no en-route charging, at a savings of over an hour.
So, I don't see how people taking regular long trips are going to choose a Leaf with Chademo over a Model S with a big battery. Granted, there's a big initial cost differential, but if that's an issue they'll just buy a hybrid instead. People taking long trips on any kind of regular basis will not buy any of the non-Tesla EVs currently available or even announced so far.
We also haven't seen where Tesla will put their Superchargers. Your prior statement was that Tesla's chargers were on the order 10 miles away from the freeway. Doing that 20 mile jog once is better than doing 6 right-on-the-freeway charges. Until other EV manufacturers at least double the range they currently provide, a Model S with an inconvenient supercharger is better.
You Roadster drivers don't fear a 20 mile detour like us LEAF drivers do. I look at a 20 mile highway side trip as being about 1/4 of my range.
With a Roadster it is more like 1/10th, and even less for 300 mile Model S.
Just a commentary that "sides trips" have more of an impact on shorter range EV drivers. Do we know if Rav4EV will have CHAdeMO, Supercharger, or even both?
Well, even if you aren't bothered too much by the extra miles to get to the charger, the extra time could still be annoying. "Location, location, location..."
NigelM
Recovering Member
There's been plenty of discussion elsewhere, but the 160 mile battery generally makes little sense for anyone attempting road trips in this country as the distances are just too long. It's totally different for UK/EU of course. (I've been to Japan but don't know it well enough to comment on distances.)
