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John Petersen bogus article (out of main)

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VValleyEV

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I don’t believe this to be OT, because from a short seller claiming EV emissions higher than some gasoline vehicles, and includes investment advice:

Tesla's Long-Range Model 3 Has A Heavier CO2 Footprint Than Toyota's Camry Hybrid - Tesla, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

Here is the crux of his calculation for Tesla Model 3 emissions, and the paragraph concluding that EVs are a bad investiment for individuals, investors, and politicians. Can some one pull this apart carefully?

3AA6CD30-44AD-4FA6-9327-8C670293CD4E.jpeg



This is the source I have been using for “Driving an EV powered by an electric utility generates way less emissions today”.
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
 
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I don’t believe this to be OT, because from a short seller claiming EV emissions higher than some gasoline vehicles, and includes investment advice:

Tesla's Long-Range Model 3 Has A Heavier CO2 Footprint Than Toyota's Camry Hybrid - Tesla, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

Here is the crux of his calculation for Tesla Model 3 emissions, and the paragraph concluding that EVs are a bad investiment for individuals, investors, and politicians. Can some one pull this apart carefully?

View attachment 397758

This is the source I have been using for “Driving an EV powered by an electric utility generates way less emissions today”.
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
Combining so many errors ... In fact, EV was long ago proven cleaner than even Polish Coal! (Just to pick one example at random)

Whatabout Hydro, eh?
Whatabout Nukular?
Anyone mention Solar, West Texas Wind?

To say nothing about Crude Tankers, Refineries and Road Tankers. Or Tanks, Jets and Cruise Missiles.

No, just locusts and crickets as usual.
Someone recently suggested water bombing Notre Dame. May I humbly propose a search for Alpha? :mad:
 
I don’t believe this to be OT, because from a short seller claiming EV emissions higher than some gasoline vehicles, and includes investment advice:

Tesla's Long-Range Model 3 Has A Heavier CO2 Footprint Than Toyota's Camry Hybrid - Tesla, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

Here is the crux of his calculation for Tesla Model 3 emissions, and the paragraph concluding that EVs are a bad investiment for individuals, investors, and politicians. Can some one pull this apart carefully?

View attachment 397758


This is the source I have been using for “Driving an EV powered by an electric utility generates way less emissions today”.
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
That also looks like it ignores all the CO2 production required to refine/drill/transport the raw fuel. Shocker.
 
The term "well to wheels" includes all of that. It's a crap article but he does include fuel production inputs.
I didn't bother drilling into his nonsense, but I assume it's like the other articles that use the worst numbers possible for EVs (places with the worst mix of renewables, lowest efficiency numbers possible, etc.) and then uses the best numbers possible for cars (lowest gas prices in the US, highest MPG vehicle possible etc.).
 
I don’t believe this to be OT, because from a short seller claiming EV emissions higher than some gasoline vehicles, and includes investment advice:

Tesla's Long-Range Model 3 Has A Heavier CO2 Footprint Than Toyota's Camry Hybrid - Tesla, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

Here is the crux of his calculation for Tesla Model 3 emissions, and the paragraph concluding that EVs are a bad investiment for individuals, investors, and politicians. Can some one pull this apart carefully?

View attachment 397758


This is the source I have been using for “Driving an EV powered by an electric utility generates way less emissions today”.
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

(Still believed relevant here because of strong suggestion that investment in EV is misguided and Tesla specifically targeted)
I replied to this article that the the power plant emissions data that should be used for comparison of EVs with ICE vehicles should come from this study:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

The responses I received were:

The article you reference makes the common error of using the mix of power sources to calculate the emission from electric cars. What John Petersen has done, correctly, is to use the incremental power source, which in the USA is almost always natural gas.

When you plug your electric car into a source provided by a utility that uses a mix of solar and gas to provide your power, the sun doesn't shine any hotter, the gas power station has to supply the extra load.”

AND
“A more careful and responsible reading of the article would reveal that battery charging (a) tends to occur at night and (b) marginal load increases are dispatched primarily with natural gas turbines.”

SO, what the anti-EV folks (and anti-investment in EV folks) are saying seems to be that one has to consider power used for charging an EV at home to be coming from the incremental power added when you plug it in, usually at night, and that will not be solar and wind, so phooey on your power grid emissions study that just gives averages and they don’t matter because the only reason those averages are low is because of wind and solar which are out of commission after the sun goes down.

IMHO if we believe that Tesla is accelerating the transition to sustainable energy, we need very good responses to this argument, to keep the investment from eroding.

Anyone willing to help me tackle this head on? Divert to sustainable energy discussion thread? I have home Solar that covers house and car, but I wish to leave that completely out of the argument.
 
(Still believed relevant here because of strong suggestion that investment in EV is misguided and Tesla specifically targeted)
I replied to this article that the the power plant emissions data that should be used for comparison of EVs with ICE vehicles should come from this study:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

The responses I received were:

The article you reference makes the common error of using the mix of power sources to calculate the emission from electric cars. What John Petersen has done, correctly, is to use the incremental power source, which in the USA is almost always natural gas.

When you plug your electric car into a source provided by a utility that uses a mix of solar and gas to provide your power, the sun doesn't shine any hotter, the gas power station has to supply the extra load.”

AND
“A more careful and responsible reading of the article would reveal that battery charging (a) tends to occur at night and (b) marginal load increases are dispatched primarily with natural gas turbines.”

SO, what the anti-EV folks (and anti-investment in EV folks) are saying seems to be that one has to consider power used for charging an EV at home to be coming from the incremental power added when you plug it in, usually at night, and that will not be solar and wind, so phooey on your power grid emissions study that just gives averages and they don’t matter because the only reason those averages are low is because of wind and solar which are out of commission after the sun goes down.

IMHO if we believe that Tesla is accelerating the transition to sustainable energy, we need very good responses to this argument, to keep the investment from eroding.

Anyone willing to help me tackle this head on? Divert to sustainable energy discussion thread? I have home Solar that covers house and car, but I wish to leave that completely out of the argument.
Certainly untrue concerning wind power. Demand drops at night but wind power supply not so. In Texas we have so much wind power on the grid they are encouraging night-time consumption by offering reduced/zero rates, because they either have to “spill” wind or spool down the NG. The plan I’m on is $0.16/kWhr during the day (solar credits) and zero at night (9pm to 6am wind credits, which of course is when I charge).
 
(Still believed relevant here because of strong suggestion that investment in EV is misguided and Tesla specifically targeted)
I replied to this article that the the power plant emissions data that should be used for comparison of EVs with ICE vehicles should come from this study:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

The responses I received were:

The article you reference makes the common error of using the mix of power sources to calculate the emission from electric cars. What John Petersen has done, correctly, is to use the incremental power source, which in the USA is almost always natural gas.

When you plug your electric car into a source provided by a utility that uses a mix of solar and gas to provide your power, the sun doesn't shine any hotter, the gas power station has to supply the extra load.”

AND
“A more careful and responsible reading of the article would reveal that battery charging (a) tends to occur at night and (b) marginal load increases are dispatched primarily with natural gas turbines.”

SO, what the anti-EV folks (and anti-investment in EV folks) are saying seems to be that one has to consider power used for charging an EV at home to be coming from the incremental power added when you plug it in, usually at night, and that will not be solar and wind, so phooey on your power grid emissions study that just gives averages and they don’t matter because the only reason those averages are low is because of wind and solar which are out of commission after the sun goes down.

IMHO if we believe that Tesla is accelerating the transition to sustainable energy, we need very good responses to this argument, to keep the investment from eroding.

Anyone willing to help me tackle this head on? Divert to sustainable energy discussion thread? I have home Solar that covers house and car, but I wish to leave that completely out of the argument.

You guys need to buy some of those sweet BC hydro. Maybe we can setup some sort of frakked oil for BC hydro exchange since Alberta is about to turn off the oil tap to BC.
 
(Still believed relevant here because of strong suggestion that investment in EV is misguided and Tesla specifically targeted)
I replied to this article that the the power plant emissions data that should be used for comparison of EVs with ICE vehicles should come from this study:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

The responses I received were:

The article you reference makes the common error of using the mix of power sources to calculate the emission from electric cars. What John Petersen has done, correctly, is to use the incremental power source, which in the USA is almost always natural gas.

When you plug your electric car into a source provided by a utility that uses a mix of solar and gas to provide your power, the sun doesn't shine any hotter, the gas power station has to supply the extra load.”

AND
“A more careful and responsible reading of the article would reveal that battery charging (a) tends to occur at night and (b) marginal load increases are dispatched primarily with natural gas turbines.”

SO, what the anti-EV folks (and anti-investment in EV folks) are saying seems to be that one has to consider power used for charging an EV at home to be coming from the incremental power added when you plug it in, usually at night, and that will not be solar and wind, so phooey on your power grid emissions study that just gives averages and they don’t matter because the only reason those averages are low is because of wind and solar which are out of commission after the sun goes down.

IMHO if we believe that Tesla is accelerating the transition to sustainable energy, we need very good responses to this argument, to keep the investment from eroding.

Anyone willing to help me tackle this head on? Divert to sustainable energy discussion thread? I have home Solar that covers house and car, but I wish to leave that completely out of the argument.

So, then, they’re assuming that the grid is constantly 100% maxed out already at, say, 2AM? Also, wind tends to *increase* at night, not decrease. They’re also assuming no hydro power(or that water suddenly disappears when the sun goes down?).
 
(Still believed relevant here because of strong suggestion that investment in EV is misguided and Tesla specifically targeted)
I replied to this article that the the power plant emissions data that should be used for comparison of EVs with ICE vehicles should come from this study:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

The responses I received were:

The article you reference makes the common error of using the mix of power sources to calculate the emission from electric cars. What John Petersen has done, correctly, is to use the incremental power source, which in the USA is almost always natural gas.

When you plug your electric car into a source provided by a utility that uses a mix of solar and gas to provide your power, the sun doesn't shine any hotter, the gas power station has to supply the extra load.”

AND
“A more careful and responsible reading of the article would reveal that battery charging (a) tends to occur at night and (b) marginal load increases are dispatched primarily with natural gas turbines.”

SO, what the anti-EV folks (and anti-investment in EV folks) are saying seems to be that one has to consider power used for charging an EV at home to be coming from the incremental power added when you plug it in, usually at night, and that will not be solar and wind, so phooey on your power grid emissions study that just gives averages and they don’t matter because the only reason those averages are low is because of wind and solar which are out of commission after the sun goes down.

IMHO if we believe that Tesla is accelerating the transition to sustainable energy, we need very good responses to this argument, to keep the investment from eroding.

Anyone willing to help me tackle this head on? Divert to sustainable energy discussion thread? I have home Solar that covers house and car, but I wish to leave that completely out of the argument.

That is complete horse manure of an argument.
Peaker plants operate when the usage peaks - DUH!
That happens during the middle of the day when all business runs at full speed, NOT in the middle of the night when EVs are charging. EV charging has 0 marginal cost, because it helps to smooth the duck curve, which is the most expensive problem of the energy industry. E.g. in Ontario all baseline power comes from hydro + nuclear (with maybe a little wind) -- both zero carbon, only gas peaker plants have carbon footprint (we have no coal plants), and they only run during business hours.
 
Last edited:
So, then, they’re assuming that the grid is constantly 100% maxed out already at, say, 2AM? Also, wind tends to *increase* at night, not decrease. They’re also assuming no hydro power(or that water suddenly disappears when the sun goes down?).

PLEASE help by reading the article, but I will summarize a bit here with copy/pasted and some of the graphics.
First the graph showing variation in power sources:
D09BE976-20BE-4A46-B566-A84F9E4317A5.jpeg



Now here are some conclusions/observations (NOT MINE):
>>> START the NOT MY ANALYSIS>>>>

While graphs are great when you want to visualize the big picture, it's hard to beat numbers when you want to grasp the nitty-gritty. So, I've summarized critical hourly data for each class of generating assets in this table which states power in MW and energy in MWh.



The key points I noticed include:

  • Power from all non-solar zero emissions sources was pretty stable on April 15th;
  • PV- and thermal-solar facilities were quite productive during daylight hours but worthless during the evening demand peak when electricity was needed most;
  • While the daily average CO2intensity was 36.2%, the hourly CO2 intensity was much higher during night-time hours when EVs were charging than it was during day-time hours when EVs were on the road.
As you ponder the graphs and the table, bear in mind that the simple act of plugging an EV into a wall socket is a consumption decision. Since the grid can't store power and utilities must precisely match supply and demand from moment to moment, every consumption decision requires the utility to make a corresponding production decision.

When you consider the available generating assets in CAISO's production base, it's crystal clear that imported power and local thermal-power are the only reliable and dispatchable generating assets that can ramp production up or down in response to consumption decisions.

  • Wind power is unreliable intermittent baseload because producers cannot control the amount of electricity their wind turbines will generate at any particular time but utilities must take all electricity that wind turbines generate.
  • Solar power is unreliable intermittent baseload because producers cannot control the amount of electricity their solar panels will generate at any particular time but utilities must take all electricity that solar facilities generate.
  • Nuclear power is reliable stable baseload because once a decision to include nuclear power in the grid is made the plant produces electricity at a stable rate 24/7/365.
  • Other renewables, including biomass, geothermal and small hydro are reliable stable baseload because they typically produce electricity at stable rates.
  • Hydropower is reliable stable baseload because some producers can tune their facilities to produce less power during peak solar power intervals, but once a tuning decision is made the electricity output generally remains stable for hours.

If you give the graphs and the bullet points a few minutes (or hours, days or weeks) to sink in, the following factual statements become self-evident and incontrovertible.

  • At any given moment in time, electricity production from nuclear, hydro, wind, other renewables, and solar is beyond anyone's control
  • The only power production assets with the ability to respond to marginal demand are gas-fueled power plants and it doesn't matter whether the marginal demand arises at noon or midnight in San Diego, California or Bangor, Maine.
  • The marginal fuel to charge an EV anywhere in the US will always be natural gas; and while increased renewables may improve grid average emissions, they cannot change the marginal fuel source for EV charging.
According to the US Energy Information Agency, natural gas turbines emit 599.8 grams of CO2 per kWh while more efficient combined cycle plants emit 512.4 grams of CO2 per kWh. Since combined cycle plants typically operate as baseload facilities and gas turbines typically fill the gaps between baseload and demand, I believe 600 grams of CO2 per kWh is the best figure to use for EV charging analysis.

The following table summarizes the calculations necessary to roll this number forward from the power plant to the open road in a long-range Tesla Model 3.



>>>>END OF NOT MY ANALYSIS>>>
 
When you plug your electric car into a source provided by a utility that uses a mix of solar and gas to provide your power, the sun doesn't shine any hotter, the gas power station has to supply the extra load.”

AND
“A more careful and responsible reading of the article would reveal that battery charging (a) tends to occur at night and (b) marginal load increases are dispatched primarily with natural gas turbines.”

Totally ignores the people and utilities that have power storage to play back solar energy at night.

Totally ignores that the base load at night is underused, and the power has to be sent somewhere, even if it's just pumping water uphill. The bit about the gas power station has to be turned on at night is bogus. At night you're talking nuclear, hydro, coal, geothermal, and wind. In particular, nuclear, geothermal, and coal take a very long time to ramp up and down, so they are run 24x7 at the same power level, even when there is no demand. (That's why they are called base load--it's the load that is very hard to shut down.) Hydro is slightly faster to change output (my understanding), and wind is always stronger at night. The other "half truth" is that if you have chosen a 100% renewable power plan, the amount you use in electricity, day or night, has to be put into the grid within a certain time period as renewable energy, so the amount you charge your car at night turns into renewable energy during the day that would otherwise come from fossil fuels.

Totally ignores that even the dirtiest coal plant is far more efficient than any internal combustion engine. (There are many reasons to get off of coal, but efficiency isn't one of them.)

Totally ignores that power plants do not emit where you live. In particular asthma symptoms are far worse in houses by busy roads.

Totally ignores that each gallon of gas or diesel burned add $12 to $17 in healthcare costs.

Totally ignores the cleanup costs and highway deterioration from spilled oil from cars and trucks (drip, drip, drip, or accidents).

Totally ignores that a portion of every gallon of gas or oil goes to purchase guns and ammunition for unfriendly countries.

Totally ignores the water pollution and earthquakes from fracking. Dying from cancer caused by sun, poisoned water, or floods and famine from global warming, doesn't change the result.

So even if you can make a case that in selected edge cases an EV might be worse for CO2, the overall situation is that EVs are so much better on so many levels that those edge cases don't have any meaningful impact.
 
That is complete horse manure of an argument.
Peaker plants operate when the usage peaks - DUH!
That happens during the middle of the day when all business runs at full speed, NOT in the middle of the night when EVs are charging. EV charging has 0 marginal cost, because it helps to smooth the duck curve, which is the most expensive problem of the energy industry. E.g. in Ontario all baseline power comes from hydro + nuclear (with maybe a little wind) -- both zero carbon, only gas peaker plants have carbon footprint, and they only run during business hours.

(Still topic of claim that EVs are not worth investing in because they do not save emissions)
My reading of the “duck curve” is the peaking of electricity demand after sunset when solar has dropped. I don’t see how adding more nighttime electricity use is 0 marginal cost or helps smooth the duck curve. What Am I missing?
 
(Still topic of claim that EVs are not worth investing in because they do not save emissions)
My reading of the “duck curve” is the peaking of electricity demand after sunset when solar has dropped. I don’t see how adding more nighttime electricity use is 0 marginal cost or helps smooth the duck curve. What Am I missing?

Here is an article about that in InsideEVs:
Solar Panels, Electric Cars And The Duck Curve - How Are All 3 Related?

There is also a paper from National Renewable Energy Laboratory:
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/68623.pdf

ps: oh, and on a related note: oil refineries are one of the largest users of electricity,
so by replacing ICE with EV you also reduce the need for refined fuel, thus electricity used during the refining process
 
Last edited:
(Still topic of claim that EVs are not worth investing in because they do not save emissions)
My reading of the “duck curve” is the peaking of electricity demand after sunset when solar has dropped. I don’t see how adding more nighttime electricity use is 0 marginal cost or helps smooth the duck curve. What Am I missing?
You're missing that base load generation can't be easily turned down, so it runs at the same level (or very close to the same level) 7x24. The excess power has to go somewhere, so there are some make-work operations to drain the electricity. When you plug in your EV, the output changes from doing the make-work to doing useful work.
 
PLEASE help by reading the article, but I will summarize a bit here with copy/pasted and some of the graphics.
First the graph showing variation in power sources:
View attachment 397867


Now here are some conclusions/observations (NOT MINE):
>>> START the NOT MY ANALYSIS>>>>

While graphs are great when you want to visualize the big picture, it's hard to beat numbers when you want to grasp the nitty-gritty. So, I've summarized critical hourly data for each class of generating assets in this table which states power in MW and energy in MWh.



The key points I noticed include:

  • Power from all non-solar zero emissions sources was pretty stable on April 15th;
  • PV- and thermal-solar facilities were quite productive during daylight hours but worthless during the evening demand peak when electricity was needed most;
  • While the daily average CO2intensity was 36.2%, the hourly CO2 intensity was much higher during night-time hours when EVs were charging than it was during day-time hours when EVs were on the road.
As you ponder the graphs and the table, bear in mind that the simple act of plugging an EV into a wall socket is a consumption decision. Since the grid can't store power and utilities must precisely match supply and demand from moment to moment, every consumption decision requires the utility to make a corresponding production decision.

When you consider the available generating assets in CAISO's production base, it's crystal clear that imported power and local thermal-power are the only reliable and dispatchable generating assets that can ramp production up or down in response to consumption decisions.

  • Wind power is unreliable intermittent baseload because producers cannot control the amount of electricity their wind turbines will generate at any particular time but utilities must take all electricity that wind turbines generate.
  • Solar power is unreliable intermittent baseload because producers cannot control the amount of electricity their solar panels will generate at any particular time but utilities must take all electricity that solar facilities generate.
  • Nuclear power is reliable stable baseload because once a decision to include nuclear power in the grid is made the plant produces electricity at a stable rate 24/7/365.
  • Other renewables, including biomass, geothermal and small hydro are reliable stable baseload because they typically produce electricity at stable rates.
  • Hydropower is reliable stable baseload because some producers can tune their facilities to produce less power during peak solar power intervals, but once a tuning decision is made the electricity output generally remains stable for hours.

If you give the graphs and the bullet points a few minutes (or hours, days or weeks) to sink in, the following factual statements become self-evident and incontrovertible.

  • At any given moment in time, electricity production from nuclear, hydro, wind, other renewables, and solar is beyond anyone's control
  • The only power production assets with the ability to respond to marginal demand are gas-fueled power plants and it doesn't matter whether the marginal demand arises at noon or midnight in San Diego, California or Bangor, Maine.
  • The marginal fuel to charge an EV anywhere in the US will always be natural gas; and while increased renewables may improve grid average emissions, they cannot change the marginal fuel source for EV charging.
According to the US Energy Information Agency, natural gas turbines emit 599.8 grams of CO2 per kWh while more efficient combined cycle plants emit 512.4 grams of CO2 per kWh. Since combined cycle plants typically operate as baseload facilities and gas turbines typically fill the gaps between baseload and demand, I believe 600 grams of CO2 per kWh is the best figure to use for EV charging analysis.

The following table summarizes the calculations necessary to roll this number forward from the power plant to the open road in a long-range Tesla Model 3.



>>>>END OF NOT MY ANALYSIS>>>
I realize these statements and conclusions are not yours.

Whenever I see phrases like "crystal clear", "self-evident", "incontrovertible", my BS filter goes high-gain.

The argument seems to be that there is some magical distinction between a base load and "consumption decisions" and all "consumption decisions" are met with natural gas. Base load is nothing more than the superposition of millions of "consumption decisions" with a line drawn where the diurnal or annual cycles bottom out. I would challenge the author of this to define the specific consumers that "base load" is allocated to.
 
Totally ignores the people and utilities that have power storage to play back solar energy at night.

Totally ignores that the base load at night is underused, and the power has to be sent somewhere, even if it's just pumping water uphill. The bit about the gas power station has to be turned on at night is bogus. At night you're talking nuclear, hydro, coal, geothermal, and wind. In particular, nuclear, geothermal, and coal take a very long time to ramp up and down, so they are run 24x7 at the same power level, even when there is no demand. (That's why they are called base load--it's the load that is very hard to shut down.) Hydro is slightly faster to change output (my understanding), and wind is always stronger at night. The other "half truth" is that if you have chosen a 100% renewable power plan, the amount you use in electricity, day or night, has to be put into the grid within a certain time period as renewable energy, so the amount you charge your car at night turns into renewable energy during the day that would otherwise come from fossil fuels.

This is very close to what I was looking for.

If I may paraphrase:

If the utility has power storage, the whole argument about “EVs charging from natural gas a night” is garbage.

If the utility does not have power storage, there is indeed a gap after sunset and until midnight described by the “duck curve”, where some marginal power might have to be brought on-line, but after that, in the wee hours of the night, power requirements go down again and the base supply sources will be used, at very little marginal cost. I am guessing that electricity is very cheap after midnight and for this reason.

So the only time of day for which this argument could work is from 5pm to 8pm, or 6pm to 9pm, wherever that duck’s back is. Since power utilities price accordingly, all Tesla owners subject to variable utiltity rates are gonna program their chargers to fire up at 1am or somesuch, NOT along the ducks back.

Am I starting to grok a good response to this annoying pitch of “BEVs charge using dirty power times, so even Tesla Model 3 ain’t any better than a Camry Hybrid”???
 
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