Join us if you are upset with the introduction of the D (RHD)

[green1]

The long wait initially was painful, and it was longer than expected, and that is a truly valid complaint, and I have a lot of sympathy for it. Tesla timelines suck.

The whining about not getting the D when you got exactly what you ordered for the price you agreed to pay (and in fact, often a few extra goodies, and software features you didn't know about at the time thrown in)... that's nonsense, and I have zero sympathy for anyone in that situation. There's no sense holding back progress just because somebody will be on the wrong side of the cutoff, by that logic we'd still be using horses and carts...

 

[Krugerrand]

As a consumer, we can't possibly ask all the right questions, especially about items that we have no knowledge of.

If you'd been looking for an AWD vehicle, you'd have asked if the car was available in AWD. Pretty much everyone in the market for a car knows AWD exists in a wide range of vehicles. What you wouldn't have known to ask about was if it came with Autopilot because that's not available on any car made until now.

 

[DITB]

It's mainly about resale value.

After years of waiting with a deposit down (extra years for the RHD version), and the cars finally here, with several months of transit time, the car will be outdated even before delivery.

Especially the P85/P85+

Had the price of the -D been higher, that alone would have solved the frustration. I'm very happy with my car, though having financed it 100% over 5 years, I'm a bit concerned that I'm suddenly out of pocket by 20K USD easily, while just a few days ago, I could have made the same amount on an auction (people that don't want to wait 5+ months for delivery but happy to pay extra to get it right away)

Imagine the -D had been more expensive, that wouldn't have made the P85+ worthless overnight, as well as helped finance Gigafactory and more R&D for TM. Win-Win.

And TM won't have problems selling it either, as world wide demand is more than capacity and will be for years to come.

I can can see both sides of this argument. HK is a special case, please consider that we are two years behind the USA in terms of delivery, Signature and all that. **** happens, for sure.

- - - Updated - - -

[SUP]​"this" was changed to "****" in my post above [/SUP]

 

[jkliu47]

There is a group of owners in Hong Kong joining together to write a letter to Jerome Guillen expressing our disappointment about the sudden introduction of the D.

The letter will be "result oriented" instead of "pure complaining", we are just trying to seek for a solution.

If you want to be a part of the letter, please send me your phone number and i will add you to the Whatsapp chat group.

There are 17 of us right now.

Thank you very much!

Maybe I am confusing the timing of your posts - but didn't you already put your Model S up for sale, and sworn off Tesla for good?

"My outdated P85+ is up for sell @28car I am not sure if I will be a Tesla customer again."

Tesla Model D, cancellation or order upgrade rights??
post#6

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm really surprised anyone felt blindsided by this. Personally I didn't expect it until after the Model X launch (production might still end up that way though), but I thought it was always a given that AWD will come to the Model S eventually, given the same platform.

 

[DITB]

I'm really surprised anyone felt blindsided by this. Personally I didn't expect it until after the Model X launch (production might still end up that way though), but I thought it was always a given that AWD will come to the Model S eventually, given the same platform.

It's not as much about AWD in itself, it's about the sudden and drastic loss of resale value for some brand new cars, and even cars that haven't been delivered yet. The price of the upcoming -D derivatives is so close to existing cars that it will have a huge impact on the used car market of the Model S, especially in HK where things have been lagging by about two years over LHD markets.

A Model S 60D will make the p85+ pointless, undercutting the performance for a lower price.

It's about being an early adapter, supporting TM with free loans for years, and putting up with an endless stream of delays and "white lies" from TM Sales.

All TM had to do was keep some options open for those that really stuck with the company in a loyal and supportive way.

There is still time, and much will depend on how TMs buyback and preowned deals will enable existing buyers to "trade up" as the -D becomes available.

I am not considering trading in my own S85, I am quite happy with it and don't neither more acceleration nor AWD. While realising any new car loses value the second you take ownership of it, this is a bit drastic for a car that has just been introduced (finally!) to the Hong Kong market less than 3 months ago.

 

[pzz]

World's worst kept secret. Just a sampling of threads on this forum, discussing Model S AWD (months and years before now). Same thing over on Tesla Motors forum.

torque vectoring in AWD Model S 4/12/2014
AWD Model S 2/4/2014
Is an AWD Model S Necessary? 6/15/2012
Regen on AWD model S 1/14/2011
Why Would You Buy A Model X over an AWD Model S 11/10/2012​

Some media articles about it,

Imagine This: AWD Tesla Model S and X With 100-Plus kWh Battery - Tesla CEO Hints At Future Arrival | Inside EVs Feb 2014
Elon Musk Hints at All-Wheel-Drive Tesla Model S Arriving in 2015 - Photo Gallery of Car News from Car and Driver - Car Images
Is This A Tesla Model S AWD Prototype Caught Testing? (Video, Photos) March 2014​

And many many more.

My beef is not with the AWD but with the new sensors - Tesla just randomly decided who will get them and who will not. If I want a random outcome, I will play the lottery - I do not find this appropriate when you spend $112k for a car.

 

[Lee Tsui]

Yep I'm one of them considering not taking the order unless they switch me to D, I just closed my order last week and their staff told me there was nothing to worry about, 1 week later, seems they were very wrong..

Sorry, you may have gotten your car for a long time, but here is hk they just started to deliver ( many of us paid deposit 3 years ago) I dont plan to discuss this matter with people who has different ideas, and thank you for respecting that

The main issue is not just "lack of newest features". We all know - and appreciate - that new features are introduces all the time (some software update, some hardware updates, while others are only available on new cars).

The RHD model was delayed for so much longer than the LHD. Not only that, the delays kept being replaced by more delays, with a lot of misinformation and outright lies from TM.

Some people here have let Tesla Motors borrow 25,000 USD for years, up to 5 years, while the last two years, we have watched scores of 10,000 cars delivered in other markets. With no guarantees against TM crashing, we let them borrow our money with no interest paid, and no other guarantees.

Now that the cars finally arrived, the first 8 delivered on July 23rd this year, the long wait was over.

Barely finished with the "honeymoon", the "bride" has suddenly lost 30K in value overnight, despite being a new car, the first to hit the market.

The timing is very unfortunate, as these many delays, the relentless support of Tesla Motors (despite delays and lies), we kept in there. Surely, other markets also had to wait, and there were cloth heating, auto fold mirrors and much more. But this is like - a Model S60D will be much cheaper but in some ways better, than a fully loaded P85+ delivered just months before that.

Trusting Tesla Motors, lending them the money and doing all we can to support "the cause", many now feel stabbed in the back, that their car has lost a lot of its value, before they even take delivery of it.

My guess is that there WILL be some kind of compensation of sorts, given the magnitude of the impact here. I am not selling my straight 85 - unless I really had to for a reason. I love the car to bits, just a bit disappointed that it lost 30K value just like that!

I am not the most upset one, I wasn't Signature, and "only" lend Tesla Motors my 5,000 USD (39,000 HKD) for 21 months.

As for you who have had your cars for two years already, those cars will be - two years old - while ours in the Hong Kong market are close to brand new (mine not even three weeks old).

Surely there will be updates, new models and so on. It will be interesting what the second hand price of non-D model S cars will be, as I know several people have now put their car up for sale. And some customers who paid deposit are considering not taking delivery, despite losing their deposit.

- - - Updated - - -

I ordered mine less than 2 weeks ago and asked them if this was a good idea to close it, they had no problem with me doing it and then BOOM. thanks guys.. not a happy customer right now fighting for a delayed upgrade to the D now! Sorry for all you guys that just landed your car and regret it. I'm sure I'd feel worse than I already do!

Sorry, you may have gotten your car for a long time, but here is hk they just started to deliver ( many of us paid deposit 3 years ago) I dont plan to discuss this matter with people who has different ideas, and thank you for respecting that

The main issue is not just "lack of newest features". We all know - and appreciate - that new features are introduces all the time (some software update, some hardware updates, while others are only available on new cars).

The RHD model was delayed for so much longer than the LHD. Not only that, the delays kept being replaced by more delays, with a lot of misinformation and outright lies from TM.

Some people here have let Tesla Motors borrow 25,000 USD for years, up to 5 years, while the last two years, we have watched scores of 10,000 cars delivered in other markets. With no guarantees against TM crashing, we let them borrow our money with no interest paid, and no other guarantees.

Now that the cars finally arrived, the first 8 delivered on July 23rd this year, the long wait was over.

Barely finished with the "honeymoon", the "bride" has suddenly lost 30K in value overnight, despite being a new car, the first to hit the market.

The timing is very unfortunate, as these many delays, the relentless support of Tesla Motors (despite delays and lies), we kept in there. Surely, other markets also had to wait, and there were cloth heating, auto fold mirrors and much more. But this is like - a Model S60D will be much cheaper but in some ways better, than a fully loaded P85+ delivered just months before that.

Trusting Tesla Motors, lending them the money and doing all we can to support "the cause", many now feel stabbed in the back, that their car has lost a lot of its value, before they even take delivery of it.

My guess is that there WILL be some kind of compensation of sorts, given the magnitude of the impact here. I am not selling my straight 85 - unless I really had to for a reason. I love the car to bits, just a bit disappointed that it lost 30K value just like that!

I am not the most upset one, I wasn't Signature, and "only" lend Tesla Motors my 5,000 USD (39,000 HKD) for 21 months.

As for you who have had your cars for two years already, those cars will be - two years old - while ours in the Hong Kong market are close to brand new (mine not even three weeks old).

Surely there will be updates, new models and so on. It will be interesting what the second hand price of non-D model S cars will be, as I know several people have now put their car up for sale. And some customers who paid deposit are considering not taking delivery, despite losing their deposit.

Some have posted that we consumers "knew" about the AWD feature that was imminent. Well, this came as news to me! (In fact, I had never heard of such a thing.) I spent an hour on the telephone with a Tesla representative back in March asking all sorts of questions about the car. The call was a very pleasant experience. She gave us an appointment for a test drive in San Jose for a week later. We drove the car, and placed an order on the spot. Not once did the sales associate inform us that there was AWD in the works in the coming months; did we wish to wait? As a consumer, we can't possibly ask all the right questions, especially about items that we have no knowledge of. Reading forums such as this have no real credibility beyond speculation or rumor. And, we all know that Tesla's definition of "soon" does not necessarily correspond with our definition of "soon."

If I had known about this AWD feature, would I have waited? I don't really know. Maybe because of the additional "range" that the dual drive motors provides. Maybe not.

I think the bigger lesson here is that if Tesla is planning a revolutionary new concept like AWD that cannot be retrofitted for a modest price, then there should be some form of communication to prospective buyers when that feature is going to be implemented so they can choose whether to wait or not. I realize that this might cut into immediate sales, but it may pay dividends in the long run with customer satisfaction. Tesla in general takes very good care of its customers, but sometimes is woefully deficient in timely communication.

I can see history repeating itself when a much larger battery comes down the pike, particularly if the pricing point is equal to or just slightly more than the 85kWh battery now offered.

 

[yobigd20]

My beef is not with the AWD but with the new sensors - Tesla just randomly decided who will get them and who will not. If I want a random outcome, I will play the lottery - I do not find this appropriate when you spend $112k for a car.

you could say the same thing with the folding mirrors, or the newer visors, or the softer seats, or the newer fog lights, or the red brake calipers, or the now included parcel shelf and frunk net, or the improved suspension components (some of the "+" suspension components are now standard on ALL cars) .... as an early owner I don't have any of these. most were added not long after I got the car. if tesla had waited for "model years" , then there would probably be about 10-15k less cars with these features on the road. i'd rather they push out newer/included hardware sooner than later. it is what it is.

 

[pinguhk]

Buying electric cars is like buying a mobile phone there will always be upgrades every year.
I just hope this will not be a trend like the mobile phones.
They should stick to petrol car plan and do a face lift every 3 years and new car 6 years and not just add new parts to the car. This will not be fare for people to buy there cars.
My2cent

 

[CatB]

I think the same complaint could be made against Apple or any other aggressively innovative company. Personally, while there are a lot of new features that I wished I had or could get, I am proud of my relatively low VIN and still practically giddy that my car is both "classic" and "futuristic"
When I go to car shows, I practically brag about the free software upgrades I have received, and all the new hardware improvements that Tesla has come out with in the 18 months since I received mine.
At the same time we all empathize with those who feel "stuck" with A batteries and 200 extra pounds of weight and vintage electrical harnesses, etc., but we all make choices with the best info we have, sorry you all feel disappointed that you didn't realize what was happening.

 

[Chris TX]

I ordered mine less than 2 weeks ago and asked them if this was a good idea to close it, they had no problem with me doing it and then BOOM. thanks guys.. not a happy customer right now fighting for a delayed upgrade to the D now! Sorry for all you guys that just landed your car and regret it. I'm sure I'd feel worse than I already do!

Just ask for them to add the D options to your order. If the vehicle isn't even in production, there are all kinds of things that can be changed as long as you work with them. This happened to us last year when the folding mirrors came out. Our car was about to enter production and we called them to ask for that feature. A simple $250 purchase got the option on our car. There are also threads of people changing their car from an S85 to a P85 inflight. Why in the world would Tesla not want to take your money for the upgrade?

 

[DITB]

Just ask for them to add the D options to your order. If the vehicle isn't even in production, there are all kinds of things that can be changed as long as you work with them. This happened to us last year when the folding mirrors came out. Our car was about to enter production and we called them to ask for that feature. A simple $250 purchase got the option on our car. There are also threads of people changing their car from an S85 to a P85 inflight. Why in the world would Tesla not want to take your money for the upgrade?

One problem is that the Signature cars have just finished delivery in Hong Kong, after a long wait (Right Hand Drive). So those that paid 25K USD, and waited (for two more years than in the USA), have been undercut just after delivery. Having given TM 25K USD free loans for anything up to 4 or 5 years, to be the first in line when the car comes out - then a few months later you can get a 60 with the D option and be just as fast.

Of course, things change and it's the same with computers and smart phones - they get outdated so fast. This is a bit extreme, though, and it's not really the same impact for a 500 dollar phone vs a 130,000 dollar car!

It remains to be seen what the actual 2nd hand price will be. If demand for instant gratification is high enough, maybe a pre-D Model S can be sold with not too much of a loss, but as it looks like right now, the overnight loss is in the order of 30K USD. THAT LOSS, for those very people who stood out early and helped both Tesla Motors, as well as Tesla Motors Hong Kong, to show that the demand was there. If they hadn't done it, TM might have thought "Guess there is no demand for the Model S in Hong Kong".

It's not about the principle of updates or not, we NEED innovation to keep going, that's good. It's about the timing and magnitude. From having a +30K "auction value" for impatient "want it now!" buyers, to the opposite, 30K deficit, that is a huge blow, especially for the early adapters who were there from the beginning.

Finally, since it takes 3 weeks just to sail the cars across the Pacific, plus the local paperwork nightmare, it takes 1 1/2 to 2 months from production start to delivery. This means there will be some amount of cars on the way to Hong Kong, outdated but not even delivered yet! For that reason, many customers are considering to refuse delivery, simply because of the instant 30K loss of value (depending on which model they ordered, it's worst for the P85+ obviously)

I personally am very happy with the car, I would like to reiterate that. I don't need the new gizmos, I am just concerned about the impact on the 2nd hand market now.

 

[Vmax]

I don't think of the 2nd hand value of my P85+ now. I want to enjoy it once it gets delivered hopefully in November. Down the road, by the time I sell it, I will bother about the re-sale value.

 

[DITB]

I don't think of the 2nd hand value of my P85+ now. I want to enjoy it once it gets delivered hopefully in November. Down the road, by the time I sell it, I will bother about the re-sale value.

That is a very positive attitude, Vmax. Hopefully, the shear lack of supply, and long waiting time, will keep the price up. I am still curious what price I could get if I sold it right now? Lots of people in HK with just as much cash as they have impatience. Instant gratification desires could hopefully keep the value of the car up. For a P85+ vs a P85D, both maxed out, the difference is only about 65K HKD. Imagine all the things you get for that little extra cost, out of a price of more than 1M HKD, including 700 HP, AWD, autopilot features, seats, whiplash and much more. Anyway, I have a straight 85 myself, so I guess the impact for me is less (and mine in particular is a family car, not a sports car!)

Btw, later this month I should have some spare time (if I am not busy driving my car!), and hope to (finally!) edit the video from the flight! I also have hours and hours of Tesla Test Drive video material, which I never found time to edit.

 

[Dborn]

Good. And good luck.

Bad, and counterproductive.

Unsolicited advice: Stick with the path of your first post, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -


My interpretation is that they are looking for options from Tesla to remedy what they feel is an unpleasant situation. That could be any number of things. In their shoes, I would start with the broad concern and listen carefully to Jerome's response. When (debatably) an entire market is "unhappy" due to the timing of the delivery of the first cars to that market vs. introduction of new features, it might be a case that Tesla takes note and tries to do something to make owners happy. It's totally reasonable IMO for these folks to share their feelings with Tesla and see if a happy result can be found. To not do so, just means unhappy owners before they even get their vehicles which is, frankly, bad for everyone.

Well, as i posted previously in various places, they DID rebuilds with the latest features AND prioritised the builds for Australia. The huge difference is that we have not had a launch of the vehicle yet, and the only cars in this country are the Tesla owned demonstrators which are being used for test rides and shopping centre displays etc. My car is a case in point. It is currently in production. Re-order offered on 3rd October, in production on 9th October. My original car completed production on the 20th August. Our launch is still 4 - 6 weeks away at a minimum. So the few built cars, all sigs would have been seriously outdated and all other cars would have been new. Tesla may have built around 20 cars for Australia, figure is uncertain. However, they did do the right thing by us. Although, they did NOT offer us the dual motors. We did get the full sensor package though. I was also able to change my headliner order to black, which was also something that came out after my car was built, and matches with a white interior much better than the cream.
Thus, there is some hope that Tesla may look on the new markets of Hong Kong and Japan with some type of leniency. What they can offer, though, is a totally different and difficult question.

 

[markwj]

DITB: Can you share your working behind the US$30k loss of value estimate?

You and I both have S85 cars, and I can't imagine that in 5 years time the difference in price between a 2014 S85 without D and one with will be US$34k (assuming the D option costs an extra US$4k).

I also can't imagine it being that today (especially as the D is not even available here until spring-to-summer next year). Even today, I wouldn't pay an extra US$34k (on a ~US$85k car) to go from 5.4 to 5.2 seconds. I wouldn't even pay US$4k for the option, now.

As I've said before, the situation with P85+ is different - people there are paying a hell of a lot of money for the top performance and the difference is substantial at 4.2 to 3.2 seconds. But, for the S60 and S85, I just don't see the hit.

 

[DITB]

The 30K USD was speaking on behalf of the P85+ Signature cars, sorry if I wasn't clear there.

As mine is a non-signature straight 85, I am not as affected by this, but it affects my sense of fairness of early adapters contributions. Thank you for your support and goodbye, here is your (outdated) car, years after the LHD market. No, I actually DO believe TM has something in store for these faithful early adapters.

My main concern is the impact on the long term, loyal customers / early adapters like yourself, who readily lent money to Tesla Motors, interest free with no security other than promises. Those that chose to put a similar amount into TSLA stock have gotten up to 5x their investment back. Each their own bet, I personally neither went for the Signature nor the stocks (didn't have any cash to spare, otherwise I would have done it, hence my December 2012 5K deposit. Coulda-Shoulda-Woulda, I know, but I wouldn't borrow any money to buy stock)

Today, we know it all came down successfully, but back then when people put forward 25K USD to support a dream of an EV revolution - those people especially are in my mind.

As I wrote, it might be less than 30K USD for the P85+, mainly for the reason that the order backlog is so long. If someone sold their P85+ Signature today, what price would it be able to achieve, considering it would be available right now? Time will tell. Before that, I hope TM HK will come up with some kind of mitigation of this.

 

[zzzronan]

For my "1 month and 23 days" Signature P85+ cost me HKD1,013,500(I received my car on Aug 20, 2014), and if i order the "D" right now and with the same option it costs HKD1,071,100, the difference between the "P85+" and "P85D" are HKD57,500(approx. USD7,400), wait for another 6 -12 months and the upgrades as follow:

• Dual motor with 691hp (vs 416hp Sig P85+)
• Autopilot package
• Electromechanical brake setup (The Porsche 918 is the only other production car using this system.)
• Gain an additional 10 miles of highway driving range compared to their rear motor Model S counterparts
• Seat comfort improvements and taller headrests for whiplash protection
• Improvements for a quieter cabin
• Wider rear door opening
• Electrically opening, self-closing charge port door on Dual Motor Model S (delivered with Dual Motor Model S)
• Increased visor size and larger vanity mirror
• Parcel shelf and front trunk cargo net now standard
• Air ionizer and carbon filter for cabin air purity
• Updated steering column control module
• Updates to Alcantara interior trim, such as wrapped roof bow and top pad

When I paid the deposit for the Signature P85+ the salesperson/Tesla didn't mention the "D", when they postponed the confirmation date, they didn't mention the "D", when they asked me to confirm the order, they didn't mention the "D", when they postponed my delivery date, they didn't mention the "D"... but after I received my car, Tesla announced the "D".

Maybe this forum DID mention about "D" will come out, but the salesperson/Tesla didn't mention about this forum to me... I'm so confused how this is ALL my fault.

 

[bonnie]

It's unlikely the salesperson would know any actual details or timeline. Tesla is a publicly held company. What was on this forum (independent of Tesla) was information that was also in news outlets and in other places. No one said it was your fault.

It's not 'someone's fault', imo. I think that's the disconnect in this discussion.