Joshua Brown's family hires law firm - attorney claims more accident victims coming forward

[BriansBucketList]

Thank you SR22- this thread will probably be buried, long before we find out the real facts. Doesn't the NTSA usually take 3 months after the black box is found to gather the facts on airline crashes ? It's likely nappropriate for Tesla to draw conclusions while an investigation is underway.

Also interesting how Elon is attacked by the SEC (timing is suspicious) for failing to disclose a material fact prior to the secondary stock offering. That appears to be Reuters manufactured BS. No mention that the Tesla 10Ks alway mention the dangers of the new technology being used and fatalities are unfortunately commonplace. When an investigation is ongoing, and it may lead to a total lack of blame on any Tesla technology, maybe they said what they were obligated to disclose at that point in time.

If Tesla as able to make 500,000 cars, with 200 mile if range, and sell a lot of them, that disrupt the financial future of any person or company ? Of course. Would that be motive to make sure the news carries stories like Musk Nader investigation by SEC, or another Tesla Autopilot crash Nader investigation by, blah blah blah. I think Ill turn on my autopilot switch and see if I can avoid investigation.

 

[woof]

While not exact, I remembered a similar product liability debate intensity (& insanity) around this case and couldn't stop digging until I found it. Anyone else remember these? Alami vs Volkswagen and Manning vs Brown

NYT snapshot - Widow of Drunken Driver Can Sue Car Manufacturer, Court Says
Case Opinion Summary - 2 No. 15: Shauna Alami, &c. v. Volkswagen of America, Inc.

So this case allowed the widow's suit against VWA to go forward. What was the result?

 

[oneday]

According to IHS, AEB reduces rear end crashes by 40%. It does not eliminate them.

^^^^ this +1

 

[SR22pilot]

Thank you SR22- this thread will probably be buried, long before we find out the real facts. Doesn't the NTSA usually take 3 months after the black box is found to gather the facts on airline crashes ? It's likely nappropriate for Tesla to draw conclusions while an investigation is underway.

Also interesting how Elon is attacked by the SEC (timing is suspicious) for failing to disclose a material fact prior to the secondary stock offering. That appears to be Reuters manufactured BS. No mention that the Tesla 10Ks alway mention the dangers of the new technology being used and fatalities are unfortunately commonplace. When an investigation is ongoing, and it may lead to a total lack of blame on any Tesla technology, maybe they said what they were obligated to disclose at that point in time.

If Tesla as able to make 500,000 cars, with 200 mile if range, and sell a lot of them, that disrupt the financial future of any person or company ? Of course. Would that be motive to make sure the news carries stories like Musk Nader investigation by SEC, or another Tesla Autopilot crash Nader investigation by, blah blah blah. I think Ill turn on my autopilot switch and see if I can avoid investigation.

If the SEC wants to investigate anyone they should investigate people who post false reports to NHTSA. How about investigating people who post wild negative comments on forums hoping news services will pick it up and drive the stock down?

None of the above is aimed at people who think this or that isn't right with Tesla. You had to have read the suspension threads to see how irrational people are with their Tesla hatred. I directly asked one poster why he was on TMC. I thought I asked it in a nice way. His reply was to say he put me on his ignore list. His profile was private so you couldn't see any info such as his past posts.

 

[rxlawdude]

Tesla's liability would ultimately be decided by twelve people not smart enough to get out of jury duty, that's how.

Jury duty is your civic responsibility. Or are you Marie Antoinette?

 

[RogerHScott]

personal responsibility

Am I the only one who finds irony in the juxtaposition of "personal responsibility" and discussion of autopilot? Some might
say "If you want to be personally responsible, drive your own damn car!". I'm not saying I'm among those, just sayin'...

 

[lolachampcar]

I use AP all the time (both types) and I am 100% personally responsible for maintaining control of the car/aircraft. If something goes wrong, pull my ticket but do not take AP away from others.

 

[RogerHScott]

If (and that's a big if) Tesla is somehow responsible for changing that perception, then the shortcoming is perhaps training and marketing, not the technical implementation of auto-steer.

Is there a reason you assume it would be impossible to at least partially mitigate this problem through technical means?

 

[bhzmark]

It is odd that the story was edited to remove the truck drivers comments and refocus the story on AP. Two very different stories

Thanks for the link.

yep. looks like reuters is participating in manufacturing controversy. If you are so inclined email the authors of the Reuters story and ask them why took a story that quoted the very key eyewitness and involved party in the story. Perhaps because it made the story look like a normal negligent truck driver instead of a more clickworthy story about autopilot.

 

[jdw]

yep. looks like reuters is participating in manufacturing controversy. If you are so inclined email the authors of the Reuters story and ask them why took a story that quoted the very key eyewitness and involved party in the story. Perhaps because it made the story look like a normal negligent truck driver instead of a more clickworthy story about autopilot.

A great number of other publications and blogs picked up the edited Reuters story and ran with it, including most of the syndicated daily papers. Looks like Reuters was "ground zero" for the spin on this.

 

[thegruf]

thegruf said: ↑
Did it?
the (pre-sanitized) report above post #145 states the Tesla changed lane.
Why?
How?

It could have been commanded to. My main point is that the car didn't run off the road. It didn't move sideways into another car. This isn't a case of LKA causing the car to swerve into oncoming traffic. People get confused. As far as LKA what do they think the car should have done? Now AEB is another story. The Tesla system has the same limitations as AEB from Mercedes, Hyundai and others. Even the IHS, a big fan, says these systems reduce accidents by 40%. They don't eliminate accidents. Had this been a Mercedes or a Hyundai I don't think this would have made it to the press.

Indeed, and my point is that if, as you suggest, the Tesla driver comanded the car to change lane, then this was in sight of the Truck crossing.

I do not accept the driver would have initiated a lane change without looking.

I do not accept the Tesla lost the lane markings and drifted into the other lane, when it loses lane markings it jinks very noticeably, even an inattentive driver would notice this.

The statement does not read as though the truck driver was lying to cover himself.

How did the Tesla change lane?

I can believe AEB didn't trigger, though it must be noted a key defeat for AEB is the driver is pressing the accelerator or brake

Something doesn't add up, there is more to this.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Is there a reason you assume it would be impossible to at least partially mitigate this problem through technical means?

I do not assume anything, and in fact, yes it is of course very possible to mitigate nearly anything through technical means. But with any technical solution, there are trade-offs, and in this case any mitigation would render a loss of functionality, increase in cost, or delay in implementation. I don't find those to be acceptable technical solutions for what is at its core, a non-technical problem.

The entire Autopilot suite of features works exactly as designed, and did so in this case. If the general public is aghast that an Autopilot feature did not prevent this accident, then that is a disconnect between expectations and reality. That does not mean that the reality is inadequate or flawed, that means the expectations are flawed.

While we're at it, let's make sure we understand all of the different Autopilot features:

AutoPilot Safety Features (included on all Model S and X vehicles manufactured after 10/2014):

• Blind spot warnings
• Side collision avoidance
• Lane departure warning
• Forward collision warning
• Automatic emergency braking

AutoPilot Convenience Features (optional package):

• Traffic-aware cruise control
• Autosteer with Auto lane change
• Auto parallel park
• Auto perpendicular park
• Auto high/low beam headlights
• Summon

If there was a technical failure in this accident, please point to the specific system where you believe the technical failure occurred, keeping in mind that a failure means that the system did not perform as designed, not that it didn't perform as imagined or wished.

 

[SR22pilot]

thegruf said: ↑
Did it?
the (pre-sanitized) report above post #145 states the Tesla changed lane.
Why?
How?



Indeed, and my point is that if, as you suggest, the Tesla driver comanded the car to change lane, then this was in sight of the Truck crossing.

I do not accept the driver would have initiated a lane change without looking.

I do not accept the Tesla lost the lane markings and drifted into the other lane, when it loses lane markings it jinks very noticeably, even an inattentive driver would notice this.

The statement does not read as though the truck driver was lying to cover himself.

How did the Tesla change lane?

I can believe AEB didn't trigger, though it must be noted a key defeat for AEB is the driver is pressing the accelerator or brake

Something doesn't add up, there is more to this.

Most current AEB systems have trouble with stationary or crossing vehicles. The Hyundai manual has a detailed list of limitations. The MB manual mentions the same limitations. Current systems are designed to mostly mitigate rear end collisions.

 

[yo mama]

Jury duty is your civic responsibility. Or are you Marie Antoinette?

I have appeared for jury duty many, many times - but as soon as the folks doing voir dire learn that I'm a lawyer I seem to get dismissed for one reason or another. My suspicion is that the court may feel lawyers aren't smart enough serve on a jury.

 

[thegruf]

Most current AEB systems have trouble with stationary or crossing vehicles. The Hyundai manual has a detailed list of limitations. The MB manual mentions the same limitations. Current systems are designed to mostly mitigate rear end collisions.

You miss my point, I'm not questioning AEB (and I'm well aware of its limitations).

Questioning how did the Tesla apparently change lane without the driver instigatiing or noticing the lane change.
If the driver instigated it is beyond credibility that he wouldn't have looked.
If the Tesla lost the lane markings to track, it would have been obvious to the driver.

Given the statement above from the truck driver the Tesla changed lanes, I do not see how the driver could conceivably not have looked at the road ahead.

And, for that matter what are the odds that the Tesla at 90mph could so accurately drive under the trailer without hitting any of the wheels?

 

[SR22pilot]

You miss my point, I'm not questioning AEB (and I'm well aware of its limitations).

Questioning how did the Tesla apparently change lane without the driver instigatiing or noticing the lane change.
If the driver instigated it is beyond credibility that he wouldn't have looked.
If the Tesla lost the lane markings to track, it would have been obvious to the driver.

Given the statement above from the truck driver the Tesla changed lanes, I do not see how the driver could conceivably not have looked at the road ahead.

And, for that matter what are the odds that the Tesla at 90mph could so accurately drive under the trailer without hitting any of the wheels?

That's why I want to know the accelerator position.

 

[Electroman]

Had this been a Mercedes or a Hyundai I don't think this would have made it to the press.

++1000

 

[rxlawdude]

I have appeared for jury duty many, many times - but as soon as the folks doing voir dire learn that I'm a lawyer I seem to get dismissed for one reason or another. My suspicion is that the court may feel lawyers aren't smart enough serve on a jury.

I haven't been selected for voir dire since I got my JD and passed the Bar, but was allowed to be empaneled for a PCP possession for sale trial as a pharmacist 30-odd years ago. I think the prosecutor regretted that decision.

 

[JPP]

...and I have never

I haven't been selected for voir dire since I got my JD and passed the Bar, but was allowed to be empaneled for a PCP possession for sale trial as a pharmacist 30-odd years ago. I think the prosecutor regretted that decision.

...and I have never been seated on a jury in over 30 years as an MD working at a major trauma center. If the case has anything to do with injury, impaired driving, etc, the attorneys cannot show me the door fast enough.