Just come across the phantom braking issue, considering canceling my order

[electricguycar]

Personally I experience PB equally with NOA and AP. The fact that the previous poster only uses AP when the weather is bad would suggest the weather may be causing his problems more than AP vs NOA?

Oh wow! Incredible catch. That is absolutely true to consider. I didn't see that.

Tesla definitely has the best forums, at least! So many people are incredibly insightful and analytical.

 

[PACEMD]

That’s not an accurate understanding. NOA is a FSD feature that allow car (while on AP) to automatically change lanes, take exit ramps, etc.

Basic AP consists of TACC and lane keeping. And it works just fine. Very little phantom braking, but per many comments you must pay attention to lane and traffic conditions. EAP adds a few features like auto lane change and summon. FSD adds even more to include stoplight recognition, navigation on city streets, etc. Those don’t work great (IMO).

Correct. I was not attempting to contrast and compare AP versus NOA, just my experiences. For me AP works just fine, only it requires me to participate on a more active level. On my roads/drives, phantom braking ain't really a thing. Every software version/update, however, seems to include a new and transient misinterpretation of something of concern, making the vehicle slow down, or be unnecessarily cautious, phantom slowing. On this update, it consistently slows at one particular spot of the freeway and I cannot imagine what it thinks it sees. More a curiosity to me than anything.......

 

[SoCal Buzz]

What I'm seeing on the website right now is that NOA is under EAP, not FSD.

You are correct, I updated my post. EAP was not sold as intermediate feature set until just recently. It was available couple years ago, then Tesla went with FSD only. Now you can fortunately just get EAP (stuff that works) without paying for endless iteration on sketchy FSD features (self driving on city streets).

 

[PACEMD]

AP does do a better job than NOA with interpreting the highway lanes for an on-ramp merge. If that makes sense. I'm not bad-mouthing AP just saying the extra features of NOA are for me the snake's hips..........

And there is a difference of the one versus two line centering.........

 

[PACEMD]

You are correct, I updated my post. EAP was not sold as intermediate feature set until just recently. It was available couple years ago, then Tesla went with FSD only. Now you can fortunately just get EAP (stuff that works) without paying for endless iteration on sketchy FSD features (self driving on city streets).

Confusing isn't it? The terminology and what versions are included with what keeps changing. It's basically AP and AP plus auto lane changing. It does seem that the way the car lane identifies/centers is different as well.

 

[PACEMD]

What I posted was literally copied from the owners manual. You can argue with the Tesla Manual if you wish.

View attachment 848427

Look at the Note, beware, in the US plain AP does not include all those features. That is clearly a very generic passage. To say AP in the US includes auto-lane-change and the other features is inaccurate and misleading. Or you could say these are features of autopilot but only the enhanced autopilot version of autopilot.

 

[PACEMD]

Basic AP is a standard part of the software, and comes with all Teslas, in my understanding. NOA is a part of FSD/FSD-beta, and EAP was/is an upgrade. NOA and EAP are the same, in my understanding. Auto-lane-change and the other features are a part of NOA/EAP but not a part of basic AP

 

[_Redshift_]

Personally I experience PB equally with NOA and AP. The fact that the previous poster only uses AP when the weather is bad would suggest the weather may be causing his problems more than AP vs NOA?

Me too, NOA has no impact, IMHO. Just have the ADAS on (AP, EAP, or FSD) is enough. Some even say they experienced PB on traffic aware cruise control (TACC).

 

[PACEMD]

I did clarify my statement. I said nothing about phantom braking on AP vs NOA/EAP. I only use basic AP when I'm downgraded to that and because I have to. The weather was just an example of a reason I have to. I don't like basic AP simply because it doesn't give the full function. The auto lane change means I can just sit back and supervise, or activate the lane change when wanted by using the turn signal. On AP I had to turn off AP, change lanes, and then turn AP back on. On my constant long-distance highway drives that makes a difference. For others, it may not. There may be other differences between basic AP and NOA/EAP but as I said, that contrast and compare is not even close to my point.

 

[vonklarp]

That's, true you'd miss out. I have learned from a couple of instances when PB may happen. For now I choose to not use AP and enjoy the rest of this awesome car. And, maybe I'm confusing AP with traffic aware cruise control, I thought they're the same. I've never used autosteer, only traffic aware AP.View attachment 848361

One click down is TACC, Two is Lane keeping, added together is AP. I too only use TACC when I feel it may be safe.

 

[jmcdono362]

I've owned my 2015 Model S (AP1) for over 3 years and never had one instance of phantom braking. I drove in my dad's 2022 Model Y and it was a terrifying experience, at least 10 phantom braking events in under an hour. Had to completely disable cruise control just to make it to my destination. I also drove a loaner Model 3 recently and had a similar experience.

I can confidently say that I won't be buying a new Tesla until it's clear that the issue is gone. It's downright terrifying and has to be super dangerous whenever people are following behind.

I've seen some threads that indicate that it's improving, but as it still seems to be happening I don't think it's fully resolved. I'd also like to hear if the Model S gets it as bad as the 3/Y because the 3/Y are undrivable by my standards. I use AP a *lot* and in order to do so I need to fully trust the car that is doing the driving, and I have zero trust in the 3/Y right now. Hopefully the S is better but I don't see how it would be as it's the same underlying software.

I've got a 2015 Model S (AP1) as well and can attest how reliable it is. The only rare times I get the alerts are when driving under highway overpasses and someone hovering in between lanes too long. The overpasses just make the car alert and say grab the wheel but they don't slam on the brakes. The hovering from other cars is so rare, I can count on my fingers in 3 years I've run into that incident.

Basically if you want a rock solid reliable autopilot system that will keep you dead center in the lane during long boring drives, AP1 is the best. Plus the added advantage of automatic wipers and high beams that work really well.

 

[zoomer0056]

One click down is TACC, Two is Lane keeping, added together is AP. I too only use TACC when I feel it may be safe.

Not quite right. TACC and AS are features of AP. Look at screen captures I posted from Tesla documentation earlier in this thread. Choosing TACC with a single click is a feature of AP.

 

[besnova]

Barely happens to me, and when it does its gradual. It's gotten a whole lot better.

 

[hckyplyr]

2021 Model 3 here. Phantom braking was rare until I got an update about a month ago that took away my radar. Now autopilot phantom brakes all the time. Give me back my radar!

 

[turbocat8]

I was considering canceling for the same reason but did a pretty major deep dive onto the trends in frequency and intensity of PB events over last 3 years (in addition to just polling forums like this). What seems to be a pattern is PB consistently occurring with a set of factors that all have to occur together: 1) driving on a long straight 2-lane road; 2) very hot sunny day creating “mirage” on road which car misinterprets as a car; 3) no other cars in sight in front of your car. The only other consistent trigger WAS driving on 2-lane roads and having a semi approach from other lane, but this seems to have disappeared from threads about PB. Another associated factor seems to be that these events occurr in rural/remote areas, ie driving past fields/farms/desert etc rather than structures. Haven’t nailed that last observation down with certainty but I did notice a trend.

The only other factor I’ve noticed people discuss is that on certain areas of certain roads and highways, drivers experience consistent PB events (apparently I-40 in FL is riddled with triggers) and are eventually able to predict exactly where it will occur and correct for it. Note that these events do not sound like major hardcore braking so much as “slowdowns”.

Also note that in many forums discussing PB, users who have had their new vision-only MYs since ‘21 seem to consistently report a significant reduction in frequency and intensity of PB events.

I encourage you to do a similar “deep dive” and explore what I’ve reported here. I found enough that convinced me to take delivery 2 days ago. Very glad I did and I’m using AP whenever I can. I watched as many YT videos as I could going back to 2019, and literally scoured this site, Reddit, and others, in addition to reading articles on websites etc.

I had a very bad experience with autopilot (2019 M3) after Tesla switched off radar this late summer. You hit the nail on the head and did great research with the 3 things you pointed out, but that doesn't mean its a corner case. Those 3 conditions are very common when you take a road trip. Yes, autopilot works well in traffic, but isn't one of the major reasons for using a system like autopilot so that you can relax on long drives? My father and I did a 4,000 mile road trip this past summer and for the second half of our trip, I was unable to use autopilot or even traffic-aware cruise control (you can read about it here if you want). What is the point of autopilot only working on stretches of road that have other vehicles? I think Tesla messed up big time and is now eating its own words - they are now bringing radar back. Until they switch radar back on, I won't be using autopilot.

 

[turbocat8]

I was considering canceling for the same reason but did a pretty major deep dive onto the trends in frequency and intensity of PB events over last 3 years (in addition to just polling forums like this). What seems to be a pattern is PB consistently occurring with a set of factors that all have to occur together: 1) driving on a long straight 2-lane road; 2) very hot sunny day creating “mirage” on road which car misinterprets as a car; 3) no other cars in sight in front of your car. The only other consistent trigger WAS driving on 2-lane roads and having a semi approach from other lane, but this seems to have disappeared from threads about PB. Another associated factor seems to be that these events occurr in rural/remote areas, ie driving past fields/farms/desert etc rather than structures. Haven’t nailed that last observation down with certainty but I did notice a trend.

The only other factor I’ve noticed people discuss is that on certain areas of certain roads and highways, drivers experience consistent PB events (apparently I-40 in FL is riddled with triggers) and are eventually able to predict exactly where it will occur and correct for it. Note that these events do not sound like major hardcore braking so much as “slowdowns”.

Also note that in many forums discussing PB, users who have had their new vision-only MYs since ‘21 seem to consistently report a significant reduction in frequency and intensity of PB events.

I encourage you to do a similar “deep dive” and explore what I’ve reported here. I found enough that convinced me to take delivery 2 days ago. Very glad I did and I’m using AP whenever I can. I watched as many YT videos as I could going back to 2019, and literally scoured this site, Reddit, and others, in addition to reading articles on websites etc.

Your research and analysis has been spot on - great work by the way. I recently wrote an article on my experience with autopilot. I wasn't sure exactly what the reasons were but I had my guesses - they were exactly the three scenarios that you pointed out. However, I would add that it wasn't only on 2 lane roads. I experienced this on Interstate 80 between Salt Lake City and San Francisco - a major interstate highway in the United States. So it's definitely not limited to 2 lane roads. I think the people who aren't having this problem are those who are using AP in the city in and around traffic. They probably won't have this problem until they venture outside of the city. Yes, autopilot is helpful in cities. But it's even more helpful on long highway stretches when you're on a roadtrip. This is why it's such a shame - there's been a regression in functionality in one of the most important use cases. I'm very disappointed in Tesla and mad at myself for updating the software. If only I could roll back to a previous version.

 

[johnnycnote]

Phantom braking rarely an issue for me. But when it does happen, it generally happens during my first trip of the day and tends to faintly re-occur throughout the rest of trip

 

[aesculus]

I'm very disappointed in Tesla and mad at myself for updating the software. If only I could roll back to a previous version.

Said by about every Tesla owner at one time or another.

 

[josbmw]

Recently bought a used 2019 Model S Performance to replace our fossil BMW 530d. Watched a lot of Bjorn Nyland video's and read much on this forum about the cars. So I more are less knew what was coming, and especially the PB issue. Some users don't have much issues, others a lot.

I like the MS for the performance, consumption, charging infrastructure and interface, but the driver assistance systems are not good.
To be honest, this is much worse then I expected after informing myself, not to say dissappointing.

The PB issue is very annoying, to say the least. For the moment I disable both Automatic Emergency Braking and Obstacle-Aware Acceleration before every drive, though they should no be related to the PB issue. This improves things, but you just can't disable this stuff permanently.
I don't like being nannied when I drive my car. And that's just what this car does. It thinks it knows better then a skilled driver.

On highways the systems work more or less, but on narrow secondary roads, the assistance systems (I use TACC a lot) are a disaster.
TACC s*cks compared to the BMW ACC.

The BMW ACC is so much more stable. Just set the speed and the system works. No agressive braking and a consistent following distance (that does not seem to be the case with TACC). Small roads, highways, bad weather, fog,.., the BMW ACC just works (except when the radar is covered with snow or very heavy rain).

My wife stopped driving the MS on her daily 90 km drive to work and uses back her Mini Electric.
She was completely fed up with the MS assistance systems (she also uses TACC a lot).
Even the ACC of the Mini is far better then the MS. And no PB or other issues... The Mini's technology is i3 based and may be oldschool, but just works.

Off-topic: the headlights of the MS are a joke. The adaptive LED of BMW blows them out of the water, and this is 2014 technology. As is the driving comfort of BMW's Adaptive drive compare to the Tesla air suspension and the noise levels at highway speeds. I can live with the difference in suspension and the noise levels, but not with the poor headlights. They are outright dangerous on dark roads. You just get light in front of the car.

Back on topic: don't plan on keeping this car. The software is just not on point. To many unexplainable quircks, Think I'll keep the MS a year until the BMW i5 Touring comes out and then switch back to BMW.

 

[zoomer0056]

On highways the systems work more or less, but on narrow secondary roads, the assistance systems (I use TACC a lot) are a disaster.
TACC s*cks compared to the BMW ACC.

As I understand it by reading the 2023 MS Owners Manual TACC is for highway.
From the manual:
"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways."