Is this as bad as it sounds? Just came across some discussion from Tesla owners(!) who are really upset about the phantom braking that is still presently an issue. It sounds like a really scary problem. At this point I’m considering canceling my Tesla order because this is a hard safety dealbreaker I haven’t come across in any other vehicles I was cross-shopping. Is it only some some cars? I have a 22 Model S with only Autopilot on order.
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Just come across the phantom braking issue, considering canceling my order
- Thread starter electricguycar
- Start date
Tam
Well-Known Member
Phantom brakes happen in all cars that use radar for collision avoidance technology (including Automatic Emergency Braking). It is just a matter of more or less. That's why Tesla removed the radar from the technology.
However, Tesla still has the phantom brakes problem even when you don't pay extra for EAP or FSD: Some owners got more, and some got less. Some can deal with it, some can't.
It's a mixed bag.
I've owned my 2015 Model S (AP1) for over 3 years and never had one instance of phantom braking. I drove in my dad's 2022 Model Y and it was a terrifying experience, at least 10 phantom braking events in under an hour. Had to completely disable cruise control just to make it to my destination. I also drove a loaner Model 3 recently and had a similar experience.
I can confidently say that I won't be buying a new Tesla until it's clear that the issue is gone. It's downright terrifying and has to be super dangerous whenever people are following behind.
I've seen some threads that indicate that it's improving, but as it still seems to be happening I don't think it's fully resolved. I'd also like to hear if the Model S gets it as bad as the 3/Y because the 3/Y are undrivable by my standards. I use AP a *lot* and in order to do so I need to fully trust the car that is doing the driving, and I have zero trust in the 3/Y right now. Hopefully the S is better but I don't see how it would be as it's the same underlying software.
I can confidently say that I won't be buying a new Tesla until it's clear that the issue is gone. It's downright terrifying and has to be super dangerous whenever people are following behind.
I've seen some threads that indicate that it's improving, but as it still seems to be happening I don't think it's fully resolved. I'd also like to hear if the Model S gets it as bad as the 3/Y because the 3/Y are undrivable by my standards. I use AP a *lot* and in order to do so I need to fully trust the car that is doing the driving, and I have zero trust in the 3/Y right now. Hopefully the S is better but I don't see how it would be as it's the same underlying software.
YMMV on phantom braking. Some people never have experienced it, others find it a daily occurrence. I've found it really depends on the road - most roads I drive I never get it; however, there's one section on one road where it happens all the time. I know where it is so I also know to accelerate past that point. It's not that big of deal to me but other people really get freaked out by it.
airborne spoon
Active Member
in 5 years of driving my tesla I'd say I've experienced the phantom braking a couple dozen times. its a pretty rare occurrence for me with AP1. when it does happen its a minor inconvenience and doesn't last but a millisecond. As soon as the car starts to slow for no reason i hit the throttle and I'm back up to whatever speed i was cruising at.
Um. So, we have a M3 and a MY in this household. The M3 has been around since 9/2018; the MY since 9/2022.
The M3 has been running EAP since the beginning; it's been on FSD since 2020 or so; and it's been running the FSD Beta for the last several months. The MY came plain vanilla, which means it does TACC (Traffic Aware Cruise Control) and LK (Lanekeeping).
Both cars have "phantom braking", but you've got to be clear what this is: The car starts slowing down. It's not screech-the-wheels at all. Back in 2018/2019, the M3 did this a lot. Near as anybody can tell, this was brought on by the car mistaking shadows for fixed objects in the roadway. Typically, the current effect is that the car slows down moderately; not a jerk, with plenty of time to hit the gas pedal and get back up to speed. Irritating, yes. Life-threatening, no.
Back then, I'd guess that, on a 150 mile trip in daylight, we might see this anywhere from twice to five times. Or maybe not at all. Over time and software updates (which, if you haven't picked up on that yet, happen somewhere between once and thrice a month) the severity and frequency of these slow-downs has been reduced quite a bit. I see it, on the M3, maybe.. once a month or so? And that includes chugging around with the FSD-beta, which is well-known to be an Interesting Ride. (But we who drive FSD-b are testers, not normal folk, so we accept that.)
Since we got the MY last year, it's done it, perhaps, three or four times. About in line with what the M3 is doing, which makes sense: For the purposes of figuring out if there's an object out there or not, both cars are running the same software.
Now, there have been occasional reports of Teslas going into screech-the-wheels mode. I've, personally, never seen that. At this point in time, my natural inclination is to think that those are hardware failures. There's millions of Teslas chugging around the landscape these days; my experience as a reliability engineer (part time, admittedly, but, yes, for real) is that there's No Such Thing As A Part That Doesn't Fail Somewhere. It's why there's warranties. And, in a previous life as a Prius driver, there were occasional reports that the higher-grade Priuses that also had lanekeep/TACC also had some phantom braking issues as well.
Finally: I know that what follows is going to sound like conspiracy-theory central, but, unfortunately, it's true: There's a decent-sized crowd of folks that would like Tesla to up and fade away. Some of these are the obvious, like competing car companies. Others are not quite as obvious: Oil companies. For real. Then there's just trolls out for the Lutz. And newspapers, who get a lot of advertising dollars from dealers, but nothing from Tesla, often take shots at the company; it's not the small newspapers, either, it's entities like the LA and NY Times. Really. The general rule is that if an errant driver runs their Tesla into a tree and the car manages to catch on fire as a result, there's a three-ring circus and parade that runs down the road doing a look-at-that; any other car that flies off a bridge and kills a half-dozen people in the flaming wreck doesn't get mentioned at all, because it's common.
So, if the occasional slow-down gets you fashed when thinking about it, then, yeah, don't get the car. But I think, frankly, you're either over reacting or simply reading one of the conspiracy theory nuts. Or you've managed to find somebody whose sonar detector up front needs replacing.
The M3 has been running EAP since the beginning; it's been on FSD since 2020 or so; and it's been running the FSD Beta for the last several months. The MY came plain vanilla, which means it does TACC (Traffic Aware Cruise Control) and LK (Lanekeeping).
Both cars have "phantom braking", but you've got to be clear what this is: The car starts slowing down. It's not screech-the-wheels at all. Back in 2018/2019, the M3 did this a lot. Near as anybody can tell, this was brought on by the car mistaking shadows for fixed objects in the roadway. Typically, the current effect is that the car slows down moderately; not a jerk, with plenty of time to hit the gas pedal and get back up to speed. Irritating, yes. Life-threatening, no.
Back then, I'd guess that, on a 150 mile trip in daylight, we might see this anywhere from twice to five times. Or maybe not at all. Over time and software updates (which, if you haven't picked up on that yet, happen somewhere between once and thrice a month) the severity and frequency of these slow-downs has been reduced quite a bit. I see it, on the M3, maybe.. once a month or so? And that includes chugging around with the FSD-beta, which is well-known to be an Interesting Ride. (But we who drive FSD-b are testers, not normal folk, so we accept that.)
Since we got the MY last year, it's done it, perhaps, three or four times. About in line with what the M3 is doing, which makes sense: For the purposes of figuring out if there's an object out there or not, both cars are running the same software.
Now, there have been occasional reports of Teslas going into screech-the-wheels mode. I've, personally, never seen that. At this point in time, my natural inclination is to think that those are hardware failures. There's millions of Teslas chugging around the landscape these days; my experience as a reliability engineer (part time, admittedly, but, yes, for real) is that there's No Such Thing As A Part That Doesn't Fail Somewhere. It's why there's warranties. And, in a previous life as a Prius driver, there were occasional reports that the higher-grade Priuses that also had lanekeep/TACC also had some phantom braking issues as well.
Finally: I know that what follows is going to sound like conspiracy-theory central, but, unfortunately, it's true: There's a decent-sized crowd of folks that would like Tesla to up and fade away. Some of these are the obvious, like competing car companies. Others are not quite as obvious: Oil companies. For real. Then there's just trolls out for the Lutz. And newspapers, who get a lot of advertising dollars from dealers, but nothing from Tesla, often take shots at the company; it's not the small newspapers, either, it's entities like the LA and NY Times. Really. The general rule is that if an errant driver runs their Tesla into a tree and the car manages to catch on fire as a result, there's a three-ring circus and parade that runs down the road doing a look-at-that; any other car that flies off a bridge and kills a half-dozen people in the flaming wreck doesn't get mentioned at all, because it's common.
So, if the occasional slow-down gets you fashed when thinking about it, then, yeah, don't get the car. But I think, frankly, you're either over reacting or simply reading one of the conspiracy theory nuts. Or you've managed to find somebody whose sonar detector up front needs replacing.
Tesla's frequent software updates change the behavior of AutoPilot given iterative development and "beta test" approach. I had a few phantom braking incidents with my 2018 over 3 years (mostly due to AP thinking speed limit had dropped on highway overpass or such), but can only remember once in the last year of owning 2021+ Refresh (and none in the last 8 months). It's not like full stop braking but rather sudden deceleration when AP gets confused at a lane split or something else it doesn't understand.
I personally wouldn't cancel because of fear over this issue, but do recommend getting comfortable with what AP is good at vs. not. For construction areas, lane splits and other cases where lanes are undefined I'm always ready to adjust the wheel and/or press accelerator to stay at speed. I've never experienced phantom braking due to a perceived object in path of travel. YMMV
It is as bad as what you have read. I have owned several other cars with just dynamic cruise control (Audi, BMW, Mercedes) and I never remember one phantom braking instance driving down any road. The NHTSA is investigating. I have had horse trailers following me when this happened, and it is threatening indeed. I just use the auto stuff on trips unless I just want to play. The phantom braking occurs less frequently on Interstates. Just drive the car locally. It is fun to drive.
I’ve own 2018 Model 3, 2019 X and 2022 S.
Phantom braking was a problem, now it’s an occasional nuisance.
If you want out, go for it. I wouldn’t own anything else for the most relaxing driving car.
Yes, it will occasionally phantom brake. More often than not there is a reason. Sometimes it sees more than you do.
It’s also way less severe than you think. Not once had anyone honked or close to my rear end due to phantom breaking. The car reduce 5mph instantly. It feels like it’s slamming on the brakes. But to other cars it’s not that severe.
You also learn to instinctively know when it’s happen or situations it might. Total muscle memory. You feel it you tsp the accel and your passengers won’t even know it happened. That takes a while to do and get your head around.
Phantom braking was a problem, now it’s an occasional nuisance.
If you want out, go for it. I wouldn’t own anything else for the most relaxing driving car.
Yes, it will occasionally phantom brake. More often than not there is a reason. Sometimes it sees more than you do.
It’s also way less severe than you think. Not once had anyone honked or close to my rear end due to phantom breaking. The car reduce 5mph instantly. It feels like it’s slamming on the brakes. But to other cars it’s not that severe.
You also learn to instinctively know when it’s happen or situations it might. Total muscle memory. You feel it you tsp the accel and your passengers won’t even know it happened. That takes a while to do and get your head around.
Well how would you? It’s a condition that is limited to driver assistance modes.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
Phantom Braking can happen on Teslas under certain conditions while using Auto Pilot or FSD. It mostly happens on divided roads with opposing traffic and my personal opinion is it's likely to gradually get tuned out as Tesla refines the AI stack.
Autopilot is best used as a fancy cruise control, often following a car on the highway ahead of you and taking care of steering and throttle (or braking when there's traffic). It works seamlessly in that use case.
I know of no examples of phantom braking without AP or FSD in use. So if that's your concern, you can stop worrying.
Autopilot is best used as a fancy cruise control, often following a car on the highway ahead of you and taking care of steering and throttle (or braking when there's traffic). It works seamlessly in that use case.
I know of no examples of phantom braking without AP or FSD in use. So if that's your concern, you can stop worrying.
Of course. But a new poster is considering cancelling their order because of this "scary" problem. Seems right to point out that this only happens when the car is trying to drive.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Lol, no. it's a hundred times worse in the "vision" cars that have no radar.
Does anyone with lane centering/adaptive cruise control experience on other brands have input on this? People say the Subaru Eyesight can't have problems like this because they use depth perception with dual cameras or something like that. I know my 2022 Hyundai has been really good to me so far, nothing worrisome has happened yet. I am relatively preemptive on cautious roads, but I honestly think it may be a design philosophy difference. Tesla is pushing the boundaries, and Hyundai is not - they're just trying to get something out there that is really safe. I know Hyundai can't do a lot of curves as it will refuse a certain amount of pressure on the wheel like Tesla will, but that doesn't seem to be the issue here, it's more the adaptive cruise control tech? Shouldn't that be an easier problem overall? I wonder why Tesla is having so much trouble with it compared to other brands. The adaptive cruise control on my Hyundai has been basically bulletproof, nothing I can recall that made me worry about it.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Yes - other brands don't have this problem. Anyone dismissing the Tesla system's behavior by saying "this happens in all cars with radar cruise" is just flat-out being disingenuous.
Tam
Well-Known Member
I got educated from this forum:
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Right, but you’ve also been here long enough to know that there are enough Tweets like this from Musk to build a gigantic digital fortress out of pure, unadulterated bullshit.
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