Just come across the phantom braking issue, considering canceling my order

[_Redshift_]

I’m sure it is a glitch like glare or something and it errors on the cautious side and assumes it’s an obstacle until it has confidence it’s not glare, shadow or whatever.

If it was simply a “bug” it would have been fixed eons ago. It’s partly limitations of the sensors.

4 years and they have not fixed the auto wipers. It could also simply be, that they are so damn focused on FSD, FSD, FSD!! They have not really had resources allocated on ‘small stuff’ like phantom braking. Or auto wipers. Or auto headlights. Or the UI. Or..

Nevermind.

 

[mswlogo]

4 years and they have not fixed the auto wipers. It could also simply be, that they are so damn focused on FSD, FSD, FSD!! They have not really had resources allocated on ‘small stuff’ like phantom braking. Or auto wipers. Or auto headlights. Or the UI. Or..

Nevermind.

Auto Highbeams works fine for me. Auto wipers still needs work. I don’t think phantom braking is small stuff. And it has improved. I think the UI is great. Still more work to do, but overall I think they have nice base that can scale to handling more features.

 

[Jane4]

We have a Model 3 and it seems to me like the phantom braking has become less of an issue. But we are doing only short haul drives 40RT to town and back, top at 75mph. I don't know if that has any effect.

 

[Undecided_2]

I have a MY 2022 latest software. When using ADCC I occasionally get it braking but only .5mph or so when passing trucks. If I switch lanes rapidly it doesn’t happen. It’s no worse than other ADCC systems I’ve used.

I don’t use AP as it’s a waste of time in the U.K. (for me) until they allow hands off the wheel driving.

IMO the MY/M3 is a fantastic drive overall. Some people really hate any phantom braking and understandably rant as they expect better. Others like me just shrug their shoulders and ignore it.

 

[beatle]

The PB pill is bittered by the fact that it virtually did not exist in the earlier, more primitive AP1 system. It is a regression in the system's capability. This is especially bad in the cars with radar that are now forced to use vision only AP.

 

[sandman1330]

And that’s exactly what it was designed for and the only place I use it.

FSD Beta is for off highway. Still work in progress.

Folks complaining about PB on anything but multi lane highways should say so.

I concur, with one caveat. If PB only occurred while on AP, this would be sound logic.

However, PB is an issue any time TACC is engaged, not only when on AP. TACC absolutely should work on 2 lane highways, especially as we don’t have a dumb cruise control option.

I only say this to be objective, as I am in the crowd who believes it’s only a minor nuisance. I’ve had them, but more of a slowdown than a brake stomp. Annoying but not unsafe, in my case.

 

[Droschke]

However, PB is an issue any time TACC is engaged, not only when on AP. TACC absolutely should work on 2 lane highways, especially as we don’t have a dumb cruise control option.

Totally agree. The PB while using the cruise control is the problem for me.

 

[David29]

I've owned my 2015 Model S (AP1) for over 3 years and never had one instance of phantom braking. I drove in my dad's 2022 Model Y and it was a terrifying experience, at least 10 phantom braking events in under an hour. Had to completely disable cruise control just to make it to my destination. I also drove a loaner Model 3 recently and had a similar experience.

...

In contrast, I have had my 2015 Model S 70D since new in September 2015, and have used AP1 since the firmware was first released (in November 2015, if memory serves). So far as I can recall, phantom braking did not appear in the early years of using it, but eventually it did. I do recall that shadows at underpasses were a possible explanation for some of the early incidents I experienced, but that specific circumstance seems to have lessened. (Sorry, I do not have dates to reinforce my recollection.) I continue to have it sporadically. As others have said, it is usually not dramatic, but I have had a few instances when it was more abrupt and I worried about being rear-ended or at least pissing off the driver behind. I continue to use my AP1, and find it helpful, but the occasional phantom brake incidents are annoying.

 

[David29]

Is PB more prevalent on two lane roads or divided highways? The former I don't really care about so much, but the latter is what AP is made for IMO.

FWIW I think I have experienced PB once or twice on my AP1 car in the past 3 years and 34k miles. I use it frequently.

All the phantom braking I have experienced has been on multi-lane divided highways. But I rarely use AP on 2-lane roads, which (around here anyway) are mostly unsuitable for it.

 

[electricguycar]

I was considering canceling for the same reason but did a pretty major deep dive onto the trends in frequency and intensity of PB events over last 3 years (in addition to just polling forums like this). What seems to be a pattern is PB consistently occurring with a set of factors that all have to occur together: 1) driving on a long straight 2-lane road; 2) very hot sunny day creating “mirage” on road which car misinterprets as a car; 3) no other cars in sight in front of your car. The only other consistent trigger WAS driving on 2-lane roads and having a semi approach from other lane, but this seems to have disappeared from threads about PB. Another associated factor seems to be that these events occurr in rural/remote areas, ie driving past fields/farms/desert etc rather than structures. Haven’t nailed that last observation down with certainty but I did notice a trend.

The only other factor I’ve noticed people discuss is that on certain areas of certain roads and highways, drivers experience consistent PB events (apparently I-40 in FL is riddled with triggers) and are eventually able to predict exactly where it will occur and correct for it. Note that these events do not sound like major hardcore braking so much as “slowdowns”.

Also note that in many forums discussing PB, users who have had their new vision-only MYs since ‘21 seem to consistently report a significant reduction in frequency and intensity of PB events.

I encourage you to do a similar “deep dive” and explore what I’ve reported here. I found enough that convinced me to take delivery 2 days ago. Very glad I did and I’m using AP whenever I can. I watched as many YT videos as I could going back to 2019, and literally scoured this site, Reddit, and others, in addition to reading articles on websites etc.

Fantastic summary, thank you for your input. It does seem people have mentioned pretty similar triggers as your deductions.

Mainly on 2-lane road. That's good to know. It seems a good chunk of the responses have specifically noted that.

As for the mirage, is this related to the shadows?

Can anyone specifically corroborate PB experience on highways/interstates, and what the circumstance was? The only ones I remember from this thread were while there were no vehicles in front or behind them or something of that nature.

 

[hemanthpai]

I used to drive a 2014 Audi A6 with driver assistance features (adaptive cruise control, lane keeping) - I had a much better experience with the Audi than I do with my Tesla (it’s a 2020 MX). Recently, I turned off Auto Pilot features because the annoyances, phantom braking in particular, aren’t worth the benefits for me.

That said, I did read on this forum that resetting camera calibration can help with PB. I’ll be trying that this weekend and will update if it actually gets better.

 

[_Redshift_]

Fantastic summary, thank you for your input. It does seem people have mentioned pretty similar triggers as your deductions.

Mainly on 2-lane road. That's good to know. It seems a good chunk of the responses have specifically noted that.

As for the mirage, is this related to the shadows?

Can anyone specifically corroborate PB experience on highways/interstates, and what the circumstance was? The only ones I remember from this thread were while there were no vehicles in front or behind them or something of that nature.

My severe phantom braking on the freeway occurred on a bright afternoon with no vehicles or objects in the vicinity of the car.

The other time, I don’t exactly remember if there was a vehicle in the adjacent lane or not but nothing in the front.

 

[mscott]

Can anyone specifically corroborate PB experience on highways/interstates, and what the circumstance was? The only ones I remember from this thread were while there were no vehicles in front or behind them or something of that nature.

I believe I've already mentioned this twice in this thread, but PB happens to me far too often on divided, multi-lane highways. The triggers I've been able to identify are bridge guard rails and mirages on the road ahead. It seems to be less likely to happen from a mirage if another car is in the identifiable range of the system. Cars behind make zero difference, but cars ahead do seem to help reduce PB. It's as if the vision system is desperate to find cars in from and will sometimes make them up if there aren't any. Kinda like people do with faces.

 

[zoomer0056]

Dont use autopilot and you'll never have phantom breaking.

 

[mscott]

Dont use autopilot and you'll never have phantom breaking.

This is absolutely not true. The PB issue is with TACC, not AP. If you don't use cruise control you'll never have phantom braking, but you'll have lost functionality that just about every car made in the last 30 years has.

 

[Charliek]

I phantom brake when I see a police car in case I was going too fast (my wife hates that) .. the car is doing it if some thing is spooking the AP or EAP ( it can some times be the wrong series of shadows . I use FSDb regularly and any hesitation is now when it seems warranted if some thing was about to happen and if I am attentive enough i saw it too. in the past yes .very occasionally It would it brake out of the blue and wonder what was it reacting to but never that significant . I have a fully upgraded 5 YR old MS so I cannot speak to MY or M3 vision issues. I would say test drive things. if you plan on using AP or EAP ( or specially FSD) and would like to not pay attention while driving . this isnt ready and isnt for you . if you really only want it for lane keeping and TACC , others now have comparable capabilities. me Im in it for the FSDb and the " science experiment"

 

[zoomer0056]

This is absolutely not true. The PB issue is with TACC, not AP. If you don't use cruise control you'll never have phantom braking, but you'll have lost functionality that just about every car made in the last 30 years has.

That's, true you'd miss out. I have learned from a couple of instances when PB may happen. For now I choose to not use AP and enjoy the rest of this awesome car. And, maybe I'm confusing AP with traffic aware cruise control, I thought they're the same. I've never used autosteer, only traffic aware AP.

 

[Droschke]

maybe I'm confusing AP with traffic aware cruise control, I thought they're the same.

They are not the same thing.

AP operates on the top of TACC, and that's why you can activate TACC without AP.

If you activate AP, that always activates TACC.

 

[zoomer0056]

They are not the same thing.

AP operates on the top of TACC, and that's why you can activate TACC without AP.

If you activate AP, that always activates TACC.

Hmm, then is autosteer what people are calling autopilot? I have set autosteer to activate with a double click.

 

[RSpanner]

2021 M3 LR. Exactly to the day 1 year old. We did have phantom braking the first few months when on "cruse control" (old school )
and for some reason which I do not understand, it has stopped. Out.