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My replacement A pack according to the pluginamerica survey has the lowest range per miles driven. 240 max range with only ~9300 miles. That's 1 mile of range lost per 620 miles driven. At this rate (which is not tapering off), my battery will be dead at 148,800 miles and basically unusable much earlier around 62000 miles (100 miles rated range left). Tesla is looking into this but so far has told me engineering is looking into the issue. Since degradation isn't a warranty item, I am wondering why my battery was replaced with a pack with lesser range since that is a warranty issue.
IMO, you ought to be able to demand another pack swap. The warranty clearly states that your failed battery will be replaced by equal or better capacity. That condition was not met and hence the warranty was not delivered upon. Engineering shouldn't be looking into anything because it's as simple as that.
islandbayy
Active Member
Just did my 41,000 mile video this morning. 7,000 on my replacement pack. Now, the App messaged me at early this morning when charge completed, I forgot to adjust the amperage so it would finish shortly before I left in the morning. That was my bad, but considering the temps outside (Fing Cold), should not have caused any harm.
App reported 202 at time of completion. By the time I got out to the car, it was down to 199. Between the time it took me to get in the car and seat belt on, it dropped to 196. See attached video.....
I've never had drops like that in the past. As well as the car was Plugged in, so any pack heating etc... should have come from shore power as it had in the past. Also look at the Bar Graph for charge %
Notice how it was already dropped a bit. Yes, I verified that it was in deed set to 100% on the slider. I was already dropped a few %.
Now, round trip between home and Vinny's school is 2 miles, almost EXACT from my door step. From the time I left to the time I got back, I arrived home with 190 miles rated left, and down to about 91% on the bar graph.
Ranger is stopping by next week Wednesday to record the worsening drive train clunk (He will already be in the area, most likely replacing rdrcrmatt's secondary charger, and I'm on the way). I will see what Info I can get out of the ranger when he's here. This is disappointing, very very disappointing.
I've already driven my car through one winter, the worst one in 20 years in terms of COLD temps (At some points -30*F and colder!). I've already been through all the car quirks when the cold hits, experienced the range loss, pack heater, etc..... After 1 year, 5 months of ownership, and 41,000 miles, I CAN, and WILL Flat Out say, something is NOT RIGHT with this referb battery. Never have I experienced behavior like this in the past on my old battery. If I could, I'd surprisingly take my "A" battery pack in a instant, despite knowingly having 34,000 miles on it as well! (Better that it's known then get a Mystery pack it seems...)
App reported 202 at time of completion. By the time I got out to the car, it was down to 199. Between the time it took me to get in the car and seat belt on, it dropped to 196. See attached video.....
I've never had drops like that in the past. As well as the car was Plugged in, so any pack heating etc... should have come from shore power as it had in the past. Also look at the Bar Graph for charge %
Notice how it was already dropped a bit. Yes, I verified that it was in deed set to 100% on the slider. I was already dropped a few %.
Now, round trip between home and Vinny's school is 2 miles, almost EXACT from my door step. From the time I left to the time I got back, I arrived home with 190 miles rated left, and down to about 91% on the bar graph.
Ranger is stopping by next week Wednesday to record the worsening drive train clunk (He will already be in the area, most likely replacing rdrcrmatt's secondary charger, and I'm on the way). I will see what Info I can get out of the ranger when he's here. This is disappointing, very very disappointing.
I've already driven my car through one winter, the worst one in 20 years in terms of COLD temps (At some points -30*F and colder!). I've already been through all the car quirks when the cold hits, experienced the range loss, pack heater, etc..... After 1 year, 5 months of ownership, and 41,000 miles, I CAN, and WILL Flat Out say, something is NOT RIGHT with this referb battery. Never have I experienced behavior like this in the past on my old battery. If I could, I'd surprisingly take my "A" battery pack in a instant, despite knowingly having 34,000 miles on it as well! (Better that it's known then get a Mystery pack it seems...)
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I know you're very experienced with the car so just throwing it out there: could there have been battery heating going on that impacted the rapid drop on the 2 mile drive?
I've found that sometimes I'll drive 5 miles before the rated range (not the % charge) drops and other times I'll get a rapid drop in the first 2 miles. Haven't tried to correlate to temperature or other external factors.
I've found that sometimes I'll drive 5 miles before the rated range (not the % charge) drops and other times I'll get a rapid drop in the first 2 miles. Haven't tried to correlate to temperature or other external factors.
The car would take the power to cool or heat from the grid, not the battery. As long as the car is plugged in, any cooling, heating and cabin temperature (AC or heating) is drawn from the grid. So there should not be any drop of range.
edit: let me rephrase that. The car will charge the battery at the same rate as the AC/heating/battery cooling/heating needs to compensate. The car can't feed the AC or heater directly from the grid, thus it uses the charger to put in exactly as much as is needed.
I think Tesla should just show 265 miles at full charge regardless of what it thinks is the state of the battery (or 208 miles if you own a 60). That way, every car is the same across the board from the owner's perspective. If the algorithm is out of whack and thinks there are fewer miles than indicated, it can dilute those missing miles across the miles that are driven. This would slightly vary the rate at which the range estimate drops as you drive, but it could also help end a lot of confusion and speculation about whether there is real loss or just a bad guess by the algorithm. Diagnostic software can be beefed up to better monitor the battery's condition without the owner needing to see that, and the mothership can be notified in the event the car thinks it has lost more than a certain percentage of range in a given time period.
Just thinking out loud.
Just thinking out loud.
Yes, VisibleTesla stores the data it collects. It's relatively easy to write a script to extract that data into a CSV, and from there you can manipulate and plot it.
I really wish I would have started using Visible Tesla earlier. I only started using it about two months ago. My car is 7 month old. Anyways, I did the same as you, made a chart dividing rated range with battery percentage and got this. Again this is just 2 month worth of data, but it shows the degradation progressing. I did upgrade the firmware at some point but it seems that had no effect.
What's interesting is that I get a higher number of miles for each percent. Mine is 2.6 miles for each percent, yours is jut over 2. My all time average is similar to yours: 314 Wh/mile. My average daily drive is 120 miles.
PS: I didn't do any script or coding. I just exported as .XLS files, then imported it into Google docs (sheets), deleted all columns except range and SoC and added a column that divides both values. From that I directly made the chart.
What's interesting is that I get a higher number of miles for each percent. Mine is 2.6 miles for each percent, yours is jut over 2. My all time average is similar to yours: 314 Wh/mile. My average daily drive is 120 miles.
PS: I didn't do any script or coding. I just exported as .XLS files, then imported it into Google docs (sheets), deleted all columns except range and SoC and added a column that divides both values. From that I directly made the chart.
My battery was around 2miles/percent (i.e., just 200 miles range on a full charge) before it failed, and after it had degraded. I'm back to around 2.4 with my new battery. I _wish_ I was getting the 2.6 you get. Remember that all three of my batteries have been "A" models. Is yours perhaps a "D"?
Agree with so much expressed here. The battery is management and maintenance issue from Tesla is too weakly explained. Like Islandbayy and others, I too have been seeing accelerated range loss and all I am left to do is to troll the forums and take guesses on its cause, imbalance from 60% charges? I have attempted the alternative charging at 90% to little avail. Its nice to say, "just plug it in" and set to "daily needs" if if in fact that gave similar results to all users. The fact is, it is not. I have had similar "the battery is fine" comments from SC and engineering. However, I estimate I have lost 5% of range in 14 months and I too worry about that rate loss over time. I don't understand why they do not just provide a total KWH available as a toggle, along with rated and ideal miles. Understand the practicality of a "miles" number but a seasoned user of the car can extract this data from their available kWH and wh/mi usage on a road trip either on their own or through the energy graph. At least that would provide the owner with concrete number on the state of charge and leave all the algorithms out of it. I have a Model X on hold but I am for the first time starting to have reservations on buying another car until I can verify the longevity of the battery. To justify buying this I had a long ownership horizon, at least 8 years, and at this rate of loss, the car will not be functional for me in some aspects after 3-4 years and maybe sooner. It is still amazing car, product and company, but if they cannot get even the communication of battery issues right for the early adopters, I question whether they have handle of the most important component of the product, the battery.
I think your tie-in with Model X is an important one. Have you expressed this view to Jerome or anyone at his level? It would be interesting if you were to send an email to Jerome regarding your hesitation to follow-thru on Model X given your battery experience with Model S. Tesla wants its Model X numbers to be huge, so I'm sure they are tuned into anything that could adversely impact those numbers. Give it a shot and let us know what they say. It might give them a little push.
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Try to understand that they *don't* have the total number of kWh available.
They estimate the number based on multiple different measurements. Different owners drive differently hence the estimations gather different amounts of error. But it is not only errors, batteries do degrade, again defendant on usage patterns, conditions, age, exact chemical mixtures etc.
No way to give the exact number down to 1% accuracy.
Well, actually, there is:
a) go to a dynoshop and do a 100% charge top-off on site. Set the dyno to some constant resistance, say 20kW and start driving at constant speed (and constant output of 20kW). In some 4 hours that 85kWh battery should empty out and car should stop. Record exact time in minutes between start and car shutdown. One minute of driving will amount to about 1 mile driven, so be precise.
b) repeat the measurement after a year in same dyno-shop (hoping the dyno did not deteriorate to much) and compare the new time until shutdown.
There is your exact range loss and no other way the get the correct difference.
Oh, and don't upgrade FW that can change what 100% means in battery voltage or at what voltage the car will shut down.
Holding off on a Model X, or even a second Model S is clearly my current plan and that has been communicated. I still do not have a replacement battery, or any meaningful communication regarding when I might expect it. The SC is equally clueless. I leave on Tuesday next for Arizona, using the loaner battery currently in the car. They are aware of this and seemed unconcerned. If good communication is what you seek, not sure Tesla Corporate is where you'll find it.
bollar
Disgruntled Member
I have several months of VT data, so I decided to play along. Here are my plots for >80%, >90% and 100% SOC. As you can see, I rarely range charge, and I usually charge to 80%. My last range charge was on October 14, which appears to have improved the rated range for subsequent days.
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