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L2 chargers in mall

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by user212_nr, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    Tried an L2 charger in a mall (not near home) for the second time, and I have say, it is completely pointless.

    I'm sure everyone already knows this, but ChargePoint and others have really wasted massive resources on these charges that are practically good for nothing.

    I arrived at 2pm and all the chargers were booked. I got a spot at 3pm and stayed until 5:30. I got less than 20% charge at 6kw. Sounds descent, but I still needed to go to the supercharger so there was no point. 4 hours spent there (didn't have a bad time).

    If you lived without a charger it would not be sufficient; if you have a charger it adds nothing.

    Maybe they are taking advantage of some incentives and wasting others money.
     
  2. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    Did you pay for your charge?

    Level 2 is there to provide convenience charging for patrons of the facility without being a burdensome cost to the site host. There are many that don't need to deplete their entire range that could use the extra 20-25 miles an hour that a commercial Level 2 charger provides.
     
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  3. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    Yeah, price was fine. It was per-minute, but not expensive.

    I didn't interview people there, but my sense is that these are people who wanted the special parking spot. The amount you pay for electricity is the same as you pay at home, so it is a free reserved parking space next to the door for EV users. 50% were Teslas. Just plug in and charging will (practically) never finish.

    Maybe someone somewhere needs it because they don't have L2 charging or has no charging, but its yesterday's technology already. If they had spent extra and got DC charging then they would be set for the future.
     
  4. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    I agree that L2 charging at retail locations usually doesn't make a lot of sense for Teslas. I almost never bother. But it's a different story for drivers of cars like the Leaf or i3 or various PHEVs with their more limited range ...
     
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  5. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    In many parts of the country, the demand charges make it an expensive proposition to sell DCFC... So, if a site host does not consume that much power regularly, their bill becomes exorbitant...
     
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  6. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    From what I can find, most if not all the popular EVs have DC charging ability (Bolt, Leaf, i3), and so it would make more difference for those cars. Their range is a decent 200 km.

    Yes, the old ones maybe need extra charging to do a day's shopping errands. Didn't see any such cars there though. No idea when these were built.

    Really, it is part of this antiquated idea that electric cars would only have 71 miles range and so they would be slow charging at the store and so have their range extended. Yet, I don't think that people have caught on that EVs will not be like this, as I still hear of them being built in "public" places.

    Charged EVs | New Jersey set to enact a raft of pro-EV measures

    includes 600 DC stations and 1,000 L2 stations. The law/article is pretty vague, doesn't define what is a "public charger," but I think the bar is low. If they defined "public L2 charger" as being a charger in a residential area on a public lot or street, I think that would be very useful.
     
  7. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    #7 user212_nr, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
    Tesla does it. I know that they loose money on it, but don't think they loose that much per-charge, if anything, on they electricity itself.
     
  8. ALSET YXES

    ALSET YXES Member

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    @user212_nr - Do you not have access to Level 2 charging at home or work?

    The intent of Level 2 charging at retail locations is to drive additional customers into the associated businesses and not to be your sole charging source.

    Access to level 2 charging (81% of the EVCI market) were our vehicles sit the longest is the key to EV adoption long term. Of note 80% of all EV owners charge on level 2 at home or at work. The current EVCI market focus and narrative pushing level 3 charging (15% of the EVCI market) as the solution for all your charging needs is off point and will never turn a profit for those providing it. Applying the "gas station business model" to level 3 charging simply does not work as electricity is available everywhere you travel and is cheap unlike fossil fuels. Level 3 charging should only be used for long distance travel. There is a barrier to providing numerous level 2 chargers at a single location which is why you mostly see only 2 to 4 ports at any given location. There is a solution coming to market in 2020 that will remove that barrier and you will start to see much larger level 2 installations.

    Of note as well, is that OEMs should all be providing in vehicle chargers that can pull up to 80A @ 240V as Tesla did with the earlier Model S & X as doing so would cut level 2 charge time by roughly 50% when feed with a 100A @ 240V service. Standardization of EV chargers (AC) as is it pertains to power feeding the charger is coming along with standardized in vehicles chargers to support those service feeds.

    The majority of all existing properties do not have the power capacity to support Level 3 charging without an upgraded or additional utility transformer being installed which is why you don't see level 3 chargers everywhere and why it is so costly.

    A little reading if you'd like: EV Charging Statistics – EVAdoption
     
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  9. eevee-fan

    eevee-fan Member

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    The site may choos to provide Tesla Destination Chargers (16 KW) if people request it, that tend to be free and charges pretty quick (64 miles of charge per hour). I do see them around the malls locally but mainly at hotels/inns.
     
  10. yuhong

    yuhong Member

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    The 30A standard dates back to the AVCON days I believe.
     
  11. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    That would have made them useful. They are DC chargers then?

    To clarify (in general, for others), I'm not asking for advice on how to charge or looking to improve this particular mall. Just remarking on these chargers in general.
     
  12. eevee-fan

    eevee-fan Member

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    A/C charger, Tesla can take 240V @ 48A, so that's 16KW.

    I think Tesla will give the Destination Chargers free to the site if they agree to put a bank of them and make them avail for free. Worth submitting a customer comment card.

    There are also advertising companies who would sponsor the charge in exchange for a LCD display showing their product/service.
     
  13. yuhong

    yuhong Member

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    Nope, the LR Model 3 can charge at 48A J1772, and some Teslas can even charge at 72A.
     
  14. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    It is not relevant, as the location is not near my home. I was trying it out as an alternative to supercharging for additional range, to send 3 hours at this mall. Didn't work.

    It is an interesting question, whether the 80A charger ought to be in the vehicle, or if it should be provided at the location. I don't know much about it, but why is AC -> DC such an issue?

    Tesla superchargers are 50-150kw, but is there room for a 10 or 20kw DC charge? That would qualify as L3, but its more what we are thinking of as L2 in these scenarios like mall or retail.
     
  15. user212_nr

    user212_nr Member

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    I see, so its the max of what the car charger can handle. In the SR+ 11kw.

    Not worth submitting a customer card, as I don't live near this place or need them. Just trying it out.
     
  16. yuhong

    yuhong Member

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    In the LR 11kW. SR is limited to 7kW.
     
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  17. TT97

    TT97 Active Member

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    Second issue is that most commercial sites have 208V so only 10 kW for LR (If they actually have 48 amp). Most common I see is 30 amp at 208V for 6 kW.
     
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  18. ALSET YXES

    ALSET YXES Member

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    Level 2 charging (AC) is not comparable to Level 3 Chargers (DC) -

    (SMH...) Level 2 "Chargers" are not actually chargers just an extension chord with or without a UI and uses the vehicles on board charger to convert AC to DC to charge the batteries (This applies to EVERY EV currently on the road). Think of the "charge cable" provided with your Tesla.

    Level 3 Chargers use industrial convertors (rectifiers) as chargers to provide "fast" charging (expect for Tesla's V1, V2, and V2 Urban SC Cabinets which are simply 12 of the on board vehicle chargers stacked).

    If you have an Tesla Model S or X pre-2017 with the dual on board chargers and are connected to a level 2 "charger" that is serviced by at least 80A @240V it will pull up to 72A @ 240V providing a relatively fast charging compared to most level 2 chargers.

    There is zero standard for how much power is provided at a level 2 "charger" which can vary from 20A -100A @ 208-240V Roughly 95% of all EVs current on the market have on board chargers that are rated at 32A @ 240V maximum as that is all the is require to charge even an empty 100kW battery overnight. There are use-cases where having an on board charger(s) that can handle 80A @ 240V is helpful.

    My opinion is that all public level 2 charging chords should be powered by 100A @ 240V for fast charging now for vehicles that can and future proofing.
     
  19. ALSET YXES

    ALSET YXES Member

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    Exactly why standardization is needed and is coming. OEMs ****ing around with your fill rate is a bullshit game that is going to die very soon. No fossil fuel owner would put up with the OEM restricting how fast you fill up at an AM/PM versus at a Costco.
     
  20. Watts_Up

    Watts_Up Active Member

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    #20 Watts_Up, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
    Until I installed a plug in my garage, I was relying on L2 chargers near by my home, and used to leave my car overnigh there once a week.

    I tryed at the beginning to stay inside my car for few hours but since there was no restroom open after business hours I decided to walk back home.

    During the day those L2 chargers were rarely available, unless you were very lucky.

    I whish there was a CHAdeMO adapteur at that time, but considering it's cost been like a wall charger, I'm not sure I would have bought one.

    I agree that since I have my own plug at home, I never bother using any L2 public chargers.

    I imagine that when travelling I would be happy to find one, if there is no Superchargers near where I would stay during my trip.
     

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