Laguna Beach, CA accident, title claims "autopilot" involved.

[whitex]

I don't completely agree. I do think likely all the current crop of accidents are driver attentiveness issues but I also believe it possible that they are ways autopilot could fail that it would be impossible for even a fully attentive driver to correct for. This would be the fault of AP.

You're supposed to keep both hands on the wheel and maintain full situational awareness. Unless AP somehow turns the wheel with such strength that you cannot overpower, it is your fault - at least according to current fine print.

That said, I actually think that even inattentiveness can no be longer the considered driver's fault. As AP gets better and requires less and less user interventions, the more likely the driver will start paying less and less attention - that's just human nature. If AP was so good it only tried to kill you once every 6 months, there is little chance you'd be ready to take over. This has been confirmed by Waymo(Google) and other independent researchers. This is the reason why Waymo is going straight for Level 5. They don't believe Level 2/3 can be safely implemented. They believe the incremental approach is even less safe, but more importantly Level 5 is a while different problem than Level 2-4, so you can't get there incrementally (think for example trying to build a vehicle to go to the moon by extending a range of an EV car - yes you can say you get more and more miles of range, but no amount of range will get you to the moon as it's a whole different problem).

 

[daktari]

You're supposed to keep both hands on the wheel and maintain full situational awareness. Unless AP somehow turns the wheel with such strength that you cannot overpower, it is your fault - at least according to current fine print.

That said, I actually think that even inattentiveness can no be longer the considered driver's fault. As AP gets better and requires less and less user interventions, the more likely the driver will start paying less and less attention - that's just human nature. If AP was so good it only tried to kill you once every 6 months, there is little chance you'd be ready to take over. This has been confirmed by Waymo(Google) and other independent researchers. This is the reason why Waymo is going straight for Level 5. They don't believe Level 2/3 can be safely implemented. They believe the incremental approach is even less safe, but more importantly Level 5 is a while different problem than Level 2-4, so you can't get there incrementally (think for example trying to build a vehicle to go to the moon by extending a range of an EV car - yes you can say you get more and more miles of range, but no amount of range will get you to the moon as it's a whole different problem).

I agree, and when autopilot jerks the car to the median or against the gore divider, you have to be ready to stop and take evasive action in a SPLIT second. And that means NO spotify, NO navigation use, NO browsing for a contact to call, NO MCU USE! 100% attentiveness.

So Autopilot helps us in some cases, but introduces a whole new class of potential accidents that can only be mitigated with a 100% attentiveness. And who manages that IRL?

 

[cwerdna]

Maybe Tesla should REQUIRE a hands-on training session for all people who buy cars with AP. Maybe Tesla needs to have a huge lot of land where all scenarios where AP can and cannot be trusted entirely are laid out, including poor lane markings, merging lanes, speed signs, stop signs, construction cones, overpass,.....sort of like a movie set. The reason is most people don't read the owner's manual.

I agree, but I don't feel this approach is scalable given how many vehicles Tesla intends to deliver and the locations in the world where they might have to be delivered.

Already at delivery time, some people have their eyes glazing over w/an unfamiliar vehicle, info overload, etc. and those who have never had an EV have even more info to digest. The training could be delivered later, but there's the scale issue.

So, barring the plot of land, there should be at least be either a thorough ride along AP tutorial well after the driver is already familiar w/the vehicle (e.g. after a few weeks) or the audio training I suggested. Completion of either should be mandatory before AP is enabled.

 

[cwerdna]

Marketing creates it's own reality, and the media is now into marketing more than before. This is not a good thing.

When asked to name an EV, most Americans respond with Prius. We have been saturated by Toyota's efforts to represent the Prius as an EV for nearly 2 decades. They appear on TV shows, always as the good guys, never with an engine sound, and able to refuel with solar panels in one TV show.

As a Prius owner since 2006 and enthusiast/former fanboy (my tastes and focus have shifted now), I have NEVER encountered the bolded part. Sure, I've gotten goofy questions numerous times (from non-car people) before there were any mass-market PHEVs (e.g. Volt) about "where do you plug it in?" I have to explain that it can't be, blah blah.

I was even at Green Drive Expo in Richmond, CA in 2011 (mentioned at Toyota Announces Pricing for All-New 2012 Prius v and Prius Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles | Toyota) in the test drive line for some cars (e.g. Plug-in Prius, I think Prius v, and Camry Hyrbid) and there were some confused folks about non-plugin hybrids. We had a discussion and a guy was perplexed that a Prius v, regular Prius, Camry Hybrid, etc. couldn't be plugged in. He was like "there's gotta be a way."

Since maybe 2011 to 2016 or so, I've encountered people who think that the ONLY EVs that exist ARE Teslas. Heck, I work at a tech company and some guy in the parking garage in either 2013 or 2014 pointed to my Leaf at the charging station asking if it's a Tesla!!!

As for the italicized part, I've not seen that either. This clip floats around even on Priuschat:

.

I used to watch Extant (took place in the future) and the guy who played Harmon Kryger (Extant (season 1) - Wikipedia) drove a weathered and beat up gen 2 Prius: Toyota Prius in "Extant" Was quite funny considering a common car and cop car in that show was the Model S. Halle Berry's character drove an i3. The woman w/artificial legs character drove a Leaf... but I digress.

I've seen plenty of Priuses in fictional TV shows/movies with engine noises, frequently completely wrong ones though, sometimes emitting sounds they can't emit (e.g. starter motor).

 

[whitex]

Hey now, stop making sense. Everyone here is going to bed tonight dreaming that tomorrow, yes tomorrow is the day that FSD is turned on in their vehicle and you will be sooooooo jealous.

No I won't, I have a AP2.5 HW car, and ten grand to give to Tesla when I can summon it from Boston to Seattle (heck, I'd settle to Seattle to San Jose and back).

 

[bmah]

Moderator note: Moved nine posts regarding vehicles with no driver deaths to a new thread in "Cars and Transportation".

Bruce.

 

[brianp6621]

I agree, and when autopilot jerks the car to the median or against the gore divider, you have to be ready to stop and take evasive action in a SPLIT second. And that means NO spotify, NO navigation use, NO browsing for a contact to call, NO MCU USE! 100% attentiveness.

So Autopilot helps us in some cases, but introduces a whole new class of potential accidents that can only be mitigated with a 100% attentiveness. And who manages that IRL?

I agree, but I don't feel this approach is scalable given how many vehicles Tesla intends to deliver and the locations in the world where they might have to be delivered.

Already at delivery time, some people have their eyes glazing over w/an unfamiliar vehicle, info overload, etc. and those who have never had an EV have even more info to digest. The training could be delivered later, but there's the scale issue.

So, barring the plot of land, there should be at least be either a thorough ride along AP tutorial well after the driver is already familiar w/the vehicle (e.g. after a few weeks) or the audio training I suggested. Completion of either should be mandatory before AP is enabled.

Like I said though, there are possible scenarios (driving right next to Jersey barriers etc) where it would take a hundredth of a second for the car to cause an accident. Even with your hands on the wheel with your muscles fully tensed ready to fight AP (which no person would every do due to fatigue) it is completely plausible for the AP if malfunctioning to cause an accident the driver couldn't avoid. Humans couldn't even react on the amount of time an accident like that could occur. It takes more force to fight the AP to get it to disengage than it does to steer the car normal under any other cases so I have no doubt AP could swerve you into a close obstacle before you could react.

Note I'm not blaming AP for the crashes we've seen so far, in fact I've said they are driver error. However I won't go so far as to say that AP could never cause a crash that the human could have avoided. ANY time there is a system that can control ALL of the driving functions of a car(accelerator, brakes, steering) there exists the possiblity the car could cause an accident the driver can't avoid.

In the 80s my mom's minivan developed a short on the CC stalk which caused it to go full acceleration while she was parking and slam into a brick wall 3 feet in front of her. GMC investigated and acknowledged the issue and took care of everything. It is only more complex nowadays.