TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Lambo CEO can't imagine e-supercars

Discussion in 'Roadster 2020' started by malcolm, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,803
    • Like x 1
  2. J X 3

    J X 3 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    Earth
    And this is how narrow minded people are, they get sucked into their own stupid preconceptions.

    Tesla did what? They recognize that they don't have the energy and power with a 100kWh and they went 200kWh.
    Noise and vibration are marketing BS and to argue for those is as ridiculous as it can get.

    Ofc they are also ignoring the upside, no noise and vibrations, instant torque, lower load transfer, more freedom in design (including aero), more responsive traction control, easier to power all wheels (fundamental change in how you can balance the car). The lower load transfer will have a huge impact on suspension. Performance is easier with a sufficient battery pack as the HP/kg offered by electric motors is stupid high - this is another fundamental change in how you design the supercar, to better understand it, imagine that power is infinite, how do you design the car then?
    Then if you go with large battery instead of small + crazy cooling, you get away with much smaller air intakes and that's big plus in drag.

    Ok you got higher weight and even that is up to a point as the ICE engine gets heavier and heavier as you scale power and at some point,the ICE powertrain becomes heavier.

    These people are so stuck on ICE that they can't think anymore.
     
    • Like x 3
    • Informative x 1
  3. jackbowers

    jackbowers Jack Bowers

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    204
    This is just like the laws-of-physics comment made by Daimler's truck company CEO. It sounds like both firms are struggling with the limitations of off-the-shelf battery technology and traditional cooling systems. Saying it can't be done is far less embarrassing than admitting your firm is five years behind because you weren't even willing to consider alternatives to internal combustion until dieselgate.
     
    • Like x 9
  4. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,868
    Location:
    The Americas
    Senor Lambo might want to pay attention if not to Tesla then to the Volkswagen Group that just set the all-time record for Pikes Peak *with an EV*. Not just for EVs - for ALL vehicles that have attempted the ascent.

    Or he may continue to insert his head into dark nether regions with poor visibility. Sand, yeah, that’s it. Sand.

    Of course, if I had sand in my nether regions, I’d be cranky too. But... I digress.
     
    • Funny x 4
  5. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2015
    Messages:
    2,763
    Location:
    Snohomish, WA
    It's my understanding that there is near universal agreement that the specs of the 2020 Roadster don't add up unless there is some new battery chemistry/technology being used.
     
    • Like x 2
  6. PhatCat

    PhatCat Kisco Kid

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    298
    Location:
    Mt Kisco, NY
    Especially since Lamborghini is owned by Volkswagen.
     
    • Helpful x 1
  7. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    5,330
    Location:
    Michigan
    As usual, I'm in my own universe....
    Dual stack of 2170cells (<9 inches thick), 8 sub modules, dual PMSR rear, single motor front (PMSR for less heating?).
     
    • Like x 3
  8. Tiger

    Tiger Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    Messages:
    987
    Location:
    Estonia
    #8 Tiger, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  9. J X 3

    J X 3 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    Earth
    Rimac C Two has way crazy specs, they claim 1,914 hp (on their site) while Tesla might pull it off with 1200hp.
    Battery at 120kWh, not sure how they power those motors and if they can do 1914 or battery power limits them bellow.
    0 to 60 is gonna be about the tires for both the Rimac and Roadster. And to some extend load balancing and traction control to get those hp to the road.
    Maybe Tesla could have 900kW peak battery pack for some 1200hp max and the motors above that, like 500hp each.Could have more ofc.
    Top speed for the Rimac seems low given the hp, maybe they are limited by the tires because in theory they should be able to hit much higher speeds if they can actually reach 1914 hp and sustain for long enough.
    Unless they open air vents for cooling and ruin the claimed Cd=0.28 at high speeds, even 1500hp should be enough for 300mph.

    In all fairness , Lambo doesn't even try to get to close to anything like this.They get as low as 2kg/hp without fluids with something like the Aventador, they are more a fashion statement than about perf.
     
  10. Gra55h0pper

    Gra55h0pper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    Messages:
    120
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, CA
    I think more and more enthusiasts will agree that any toxic exhaust fumes spitting car by definition cannot be considered a “supercar” any longer...

    But either way... even if you take his definition of a supercar: “Reggiani added that these specifications would be a speed of “more than 300 km/h (186 mph)” and “being able to complete 3 laps on the Nürburgring racetrack”, he will be proven wrong. Can a fully electric super car be fully “on” for 40 miles of continuous repeated acceleration, cornering and braking? I definitely think it can. I actually think the battery may not prove the biggest problem (assuming sufficient cooling). I’m more worried about the brakes overheating given the high weight of the car.
    (which makes me wonder - does the Roadster prototype use carbon brakes?)

    Note that I’m surprised he doesn’t mention a lap-time target. Given the undoubtedly very high weight of the car, I think achieving “supercar” nürburgring lap-times will prove to remain a challenge for some time.
     
  11. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,803
    Possibly. It will be interesting to see what fast response torque vectoring brings to the table.
     
  12. J X 3

    J X 3 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    Earth
    So much talk about weight and it's more of a myth.
    A Lambo Aventador gets up to 1800kg with 740hp or about, a Bugatti Chiron is at 1,996 kg with 1,479 hp,
    The Rimac is at 1,950 kg with 1914HP. The Roadster can be 1700-2000kg.
    Sure there are some ICE competitors that are much lower weight but only some.

    Battery cooling is a big deal, air intakes = drag, fancy cooling=costs, weight and mechanical volume and maybe that could be spent elsewhere so not always the best solution.

    And back to weight, how is that bad? All equal weight is bad but nobody designs based on all equal.
    Some will claim lower grip but is it? The rubber , the material itself (not the tire) is designed for a certain amount of friction at a certain amount of pressure or call it compression rate or w/e. So weight per unit of area. If you have more weight, the simple solution is a wider tire - same everything else- so you end up with same weight per area. Ofc they are gonna tune more than just that. There are upsides and downsides to that ofc but weight is not something you can't deal with.
    Battery is gonna provide a lower center of gravity height and you can go even further with a big wheelbase and track. That gives you much lower load transfer and that's great. Great for how the suspension is designed and wheel alignment, great for tires, great for the brakes, great for oversteer/understeer management. With a longer wheelbase you might even get more downforce from the diffuser. If you have AWD, low load transfer is a plus too as you can take better advantage of all the available power.
    Rolling resistance is very little considering the torque and power available, the main enemies are drag and traction.
    If you have abundant power, weight is less of a constraint, not a huge deal if you optimize more for handling and grip.
    They can't beat an F1 car without a lot more downforce and similar tires but there is no reason not to beat direct competitors, assuming the Roadster can sustain perf.

    And at Nürburgring the electric NIO EP9 has the second fastest time behind a hybrid McLaren P1. But the EP9 was underpowered, it lost time on the straight, too much drag and downforce. Had 1300+HP and a lot of downforce but only 313 km/h top speed and 2.7s for 0 to 60.
     
  13. cmaster

    cmaster Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Messages:
    241
    Location:
    United States
    I see this in reality all the time. They won't even attempt to try to do things if they have formed preconceptions in their heads. This includes me, any Engineers or Scientists I had worked with, lawyer, doctors. People from all walks of life like to build some sort of wall.

    Examples include when people wants to start a business, their venture capitalist funder would deny the investment because they think its too risky. But, a few years later, that business thrives into a 1 billion dollar business.

    I think honestly, preconceptions is a protection that people use to reduce risks in their life.
     
    • Like x 1
  14. Kenriko

    Kenriko Vendor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    Bay Area, Austin, Miami
    That's a very narrowminded view in itself, go watch "The Fastest Car" on Netflix, they spend a whole season running Supercars against hand built dragsters with semi-famous owners including Zombie (electric datsun) and Abel from "Rob Dahm 4Rotor RX7 / former drag champion fame" in the end everyone gets beat by an unskilled driver in a Lambo - all the power in the world is useless if you can't get it down when you need too. (For the record, I don't think Tesla has this problem)

    That's silly, that's the same argument that Rolex is dead because the Apple watch exists. You don't NEED a massive V12 to make the power that supercars make... so why do they do it? For the same reason, the watchmaker spends an insane amount of time hand making those watches.

    I think that's where the SpaceX option package comes in if you're going 200mph and need to be going 100mph the car does not just toast the breaks it fires the thrusters and cuts a big chunk of that speed without the friction. I get the feeling that someone told Elon that the laws of physics would not allow that much weight to be thrown around on even the best tires and the thrusters are his "well what if we... moment"

    No way to know even the aprox target laptime until the car is finished tuned and tested.
     
  15. commasign

    commasign Tesla Superfan

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,939
    Location:
    Davis, CA
    Just like when BlackBerry heard about Apple making a cell phone with a giant touchscreen and no physical keyboard. No way they can do that. No way anyone would want it.
     
  16. tander

    tander Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,309
    Hard to believe that single line of thinking cost billions and thousands of jobs for Blackberry/Nokia while doing the opposite for Apple.
    Only till someone builds a better mousetrap.
     
    • Like x 2
  17. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,153
    Location:
    NorCal
    #17 EinSV, Jun 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
    Perhaps the Lambo CEO and the other doubters should listen to the independent test driver who actually has driven one and says Tesla is already meeting or exceeding the specs:

    "I know there is some skepticism about the figures that were quoted that day, 0 to 60 mph, quarter-mile, etc., and I think I can say without getting in trouble that those are actual figures. Those are not theoretical. Those are not calculations. We have done those numbers. I probably shouldn’t say but those numbers are actually conservatives. It’s going to be a proper weapon."
    Tesla next-gen Roadster test driver: ‘Elon’s specs are conservative, it’s going to be a proper weapon’
     
  18. SwTslaGrl

    SwTslaGrl Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    513
    Location:
    Sweden
    • Like x 3
  19. bobinfla

    bobinfla S-Vin 4086 Rdstr-Vin 0019

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    266
    Location:
    Land O'Lakes
    • Funny x 3
    • Like x 1
  20. J X 3

    J X 3 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    Earth
    We adults are stupid like that, something must be done in a certain way and we can't see beyond that at all.
    Maybe this is why there is always a disconnect between adults and young people. Young people are quick to adopt the rational solution as they haven't been conditioned to do it how it's supposed to be done. From smartphone usage to Google Docs as a collaborative tool it's like that. Even EV adoption and autonomy scares the s..t out of many adults while the youth has no issues with them.

    PS: Wondering how much of a problem this will be with AI.
     
    • Like x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC