I still find it odd it was left out. It has to simply be a software issue that they are working on for a future update but don't know what the delay is. They had it in the Roadster. Maybe they are skipping a simply charge at X time feature and going for something more complex and it is taking a long time. Can't really think of any other reason.
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I still find it odd it was left out. It has to simply be a software issue that they are working on for a future update but don't know what the delay is. They had it in the Roadster. Maybe they are skipping a simply charge at X time feature and going for something more complex and it is taking a long time. Can't really think of any other reason.
I've been plugging in my car about every other day but haven't been out on the road due to a cold. Time to charge has been estimated by the S to be 1.5 hours each time on 240 at 30 amps. Seems like a lot of charging needed for no driving. Garage temp is around 30.
Hi Ben,
Thanks for the reporting. How many hours has the car been plugged in so far?
Thanks.
Larry
dennis
Model S Plaid
I assume Sleep Mode OFF=Keep Displays Powered is set to OFF (I still don't have 4.X, just looking at the release notes). That being the case, what is the range loss in 24 hours?
It seems to me that the car is simply trying to maximize battery life. Until there is a way to let the car know what time you intend to drive again (via the upcoming app and timed charging option) it doesn't know whether you will need it in 8 hours or 8 weeks - therefore it is going to allow the SOC to decrease naturally until the optimal storage SOC is reached. I haven't read (or maybe I missed) what happens when the battery gets to its optimal SOC level? Does a plugged in vehicle then begin intermittent charging as necessary to keep the battery pack at the optimal storage SOC? What is the optimal storage SOC of a plugged in battery pack? I am guessing it is somewhere around 50% or less?
30 miles in one day is not "decreasing naturally", though. If that figure really does reflect the SOC of the pack, a lot of energy is going someplace besides natural discharge of the battery and minor parasitic loads.
dennis
Model S Plaid
Reading the release notes the section title is Vehicle Sleep but the control is Keep Displays Powered (Off/On). Easy to get confused.
Cinergi has reported that even after a number of days, when left plugged in the range hasn't dropped below 231 miles of rated range when charging in Standard mode. That's about 87% of full capacity. It is definitely not letting the SoC to dip to optimal storage levels. (I have not seen my range dip below the mid 230's when plugged in in Standard mode for around a day or less.)
Larry
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From my experience I would guess that my "loss" of 30 miles overnight (less than 12 hours) was not completely a loss of energy, but rather something to do with the manner in which the car calculates range when cold. When I warmed up the car with a charge the range was restored faster than the charging rate of the connection.
Larry
IIRC, the fabled Web App will/does include both control over cabin temps, & time to have max/standard SOC available for the driver's return.
I.e., it should be possible to set, say, 7 a.m. tomorrow as a departure time, and specify full standard charge and cabin temp of 72°F, and have the app arrange all of that seamlessly.
I.e., it should be possible to set, say, 7 a.m. tomorrow as a departure time, and specify full standard charge and cabin temp of 72°F, and have the app arrange all of that seamlessly.
Judging from the number of 12V battery failures mentioned elsewhere in the forum, I suspect that the parasitic loads may still not be "minor". But, we don't know how many folks with 12V failures have sleep mode available and turned on, and how much damage was done to their 12V prior to getting the update (still a lot of us out there without the update to 4.x).
The SOC bar graph in my LEAF doesn't seem to change much with changes in battery temperature, so it must be a calculated SOC that compensates for battery temp. Unfortunately, the true range does decrease in the cold such that each "bar" gives you fewer miles, particulary when the temps get near 0[SUP]o[/SUP] F, and especially if you run the heat at a typical ICE-type setting.
EcoHeliGuy
Member
In many of Tesla's videos about the model S of the years they talk about the car learning when to pre heat the cabin.
Im not sure if this feature is in the car yet, but is it possible these cars are warming up to be driven at a certain time, day after day while being parked. And is it possible that if the cabin doesn't do this yet, that the battery pack is? Maybe the battery pack has two stand by temperutre settings, warm enough to not harm while driving (never goes below this one), and warmer to give more optimum range. Both of these temps below optimum regen.
So at the airport the car might be trying to maintain 32°, and then each day at 8am and 5 pm it brings the battery pack up to 50° expecting to go do a drive?
also its next to impossible in measure SOC. the computer is working crazy algorithms and past performance to guess the SOC. This is why so much range and usage information is available to the driver, this information is already needed for SOC calculations. The tempeture drops plus sitting around for Long periods would have major effects on estimates, hence while range is coming back once driven and faster then expected when charged.
Im not sure if this feature is in the car yet, but is it possible these cars are warming up to be driven at a certain time, day after day while being parked. And is it possible that if the cabin doesn't do this yet, that the battery pack is? Maybe the battery pack has two stand by temperutre settings, warm enough to not harm while driving (never goes below this one), and warmer to give more optimum range. Both of these temps below optimum regen.
So at the airport the car might be trying to maintain 32°, and then each day at 8am and 5 pm it brings the battery pack up to 50° expecting to go do a drive?
also its next to impossible in measure SOC. the computer is working crazy algorithms and past performance to guess the SOC. This is why so much range and usage information is available to the driver, this information is already needed for SOC calculations. The tempeture drops plus sitting around for Long periods would have major effects on estimates, hence while range is coming back once driven and faster then expected when charged.
surfingslovak
Member
Yes, that's possible. If my calculations were correct, then it would take about 0.5 kWh to raise pack temperature by 10 degrees. Assuming that this energy will be then dissipated, and will need to be replaced, you can likely bank on something between 3 to 6 kWh each 24 hours in this particular scenario.
Obviously, that would depend on how cold it was outside, and how long the pack was conditioned at 50°. I tried to estimate the energy dissipated from the underbody. It's tricky, and I could be wrong, but I'm getting figures around 20 Watts for radiant heat transfer and about 300 to 400 Watt for heat convection. This means that to maintain pack temperature of 50°, when the ambient is near the freezing point, about 0.3 to 0.5 kWh would be required each hour, on average.
That's indeed a very fundamental shortcoming, and it will hopefully be corrected by a future software update, given Tesla's track record and credibility as innovator in this space. Personally, I would really like to see the kWh estimate used internally to compute range figures. Even if this number changed based on temperature or some other factors, I think exposing it would be both beneficial and educational.
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Hi guys,
I concur with SurfingSlovak here...they car should definately have a basic kWh remaining indicator as well as the range/miles indicator...in my EV that I have had for ten years (Solectria Force) ALL I have ever had is a kWh display and you knew that 0.0 was fully charged and that 30.0 was dead (not sure why it counted up rather than down but that's how it worked). I enjoyed that I could make the calculations myself based on my driving but I can see that for longer trips a mileage indicator can be useful as well.
At any rate I am just surprised to see that people were not specifically told by Tesla when making a reservation or certainly when taking delivery to be very careful with the car in cold temperatures. Previously I had been going off the following article when determining parasitic load or "bricking":
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384571-76/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/
In the article it says that Tesla claims it would take "a full year" to brick a Model S if you left it unplugged with a 50% state of charge. Perfect I thought and told all my friends/family in Canada to not worry about a Tesla in cold weather.
Obviously from customer statements here clearly Tesla meant that it MIGHT take a full year to run down the battery IF the car sat in perfect room temperature conditions the entire time.
With reservations in places like bitter cold Norway now leading the E.U. I think it is absolutely imperitive that Tesla be extremely honest with potential customers about the car's performance/range in cold weather.
It is better to risk a sale than risk lawsuits from those in cold temperature climates claiming that they were not accurately informed about the car's cold weather performance.
I am hoping advancements in battery chemistry and improved efficiency in EV thermal management systems will help with this problem soon...clearly battery capacity isn't the only area where improvements must be made...hopefully by Gen III a lot of progess will have been made.
I concur with SurfingSlovak here...they car should definately have a basic kWh remaining indicator as well as the range/miles indicator...in my EV that I have had for ten years (Solectria Force) ALL I have ever had is a kWh display and you knew that 0.0 was fully charged and that 30.0 was dead (not sure why it counted up rather than down but that's how it worked). I enjoyed that I could make the calculations myself based on my driving but I can see that for longer trips a mileage indicator can be useful as well.
At any rate I am just surprised to see that people were not specifically told by Tesla when making a reservation or certainly when taking delivery to be very careful with the car in cold temperatures. Previously I had been going off the following article when determining parasitic load or "bricking":
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384571-76/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/
In the article it says that Tesla claims it would take "a full year" to brick a Model S if you left it unplugged with a 50% state of charge. Perfect I thought and told all my friends/family in Canada to not worry about a Tesla in cold weather.
Obviously from customer statements here clearly Tesla meant that it MIGHT take a full year to run down the battery IF the car sat in perfect room temperature conditions the entire time.
With reservations in places like bitter cold Norway now leading the E.U. I think it is absolutely imperitive that Tesla be extremely honest with potential customers about the car's performance/range in cold weather.
It is better to risk a sale than risk lawsuits from those in cold temperature climates claiming that they were not accurately informed about the car's cold weather performance.
I am hoping advancements in battery chemistry and improved efficiency in EV thermal management systems will help with this problem soon...clearly battery capacity isn't the only area where improvements must be made...hopefully by Gen III a lot of progess will have been made.
Just to add I think Tesla should put a chart in the Model S owner's manual clearly showing affect on range and parasitic load when parked in certain temperatures (both hot and cold)...they could also put a link to this chart on their website...potential buyers should be given this information and have the opportunity to judge for themselves if it is an issue for them or not.
I think most Tesla buyers realise that as a first adopter there are certain quirks that they are willing to deal with in exchange for a cutting edge product...however if they aren't told that their car is going to lose 25 miles of range every 5 hours it is parked in sub-zero weather and they happen to leave their car at an airport for two weeks in winter...they will be very upset to find a "bricked" Tesla that needs a new battery pack!
Honesty in cold/hot weather MUST be forthcoming from Tesla ASAP from what I can see here.
I think most Tesla buyers realise that as a first adopter there are certain quirks that they are willing to deal with in exchange for a cutting edge product...however if they aren't told that their car is going to lose 25 miles of range every 5 hours it is parked in sub-zero weather and they happen to leave their car at an airport for two weeks in winter...they will be very upset to find a "bricked" Tesla that needs a new battery pack!
Honesty in cold/hot weather MUST be forthcoming from Tesla ASAP from what I can see here.
I posted something relevant on another thread: Time from Standard to Range - Page 4
I was writing about the daily top-off charge when the S is plugged in, but I don't know if there is a lower, semi-continuous draw for battery conditioning when ambient temps are low. The overall impression I get from reading these threads is that the behavior is not consistent for everyone.
BTW, I've never seen a rated range under 230 miles or over 241 miles (standard charge mode) when plugged in continuously.
I was writing about the daily top-off charge when the S is plugged in, but I don't know if there is a lower, semi-continuous draw for battery conditioning when ambient temps are low. The overall impression I get from reading these threads is that the behavior is not consistent for everyone.
BTW, I've never seen a rated range under 230 miles or over 241 miles (standard charge mode) when plugged in continuously.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I suspect that at some low SOC the car and pack shuts down completely, preventing any further drain, so that it could indeed sit for a year without killing the pack, regardless of the climate. Yes if it's sitting in a hot climate it will age the pack faster without any cooling during that time period.
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