Latest PG&E Bill

[astrorob]

well there was absolutely no electric section for my home with powerwalls on the blue bill. just the gas and the new place. that's what's bothering me. is that normal? or are you saying that i won't see any paired storage home activity on the blue bill until a true-up occurs?

is the black and white bill only provided by mail?

 

[holeydonut]

well there was absolutely no electric section for my home with powerwalls on the blue bill. just the gas and the new place. that's what's bothering me. is that normal? or are you saying that i won't see any paired storage home activity on the blue bill until a true-up occurs?

is the black and white bill only provided by mail?

Weird, you don’t even see the “non bypassable charge” on your blue header bill? It’s about $10 per month you have to pay no matter what you consume or export.

Are you sure you got PTO? Did Tesla forward the PTO confirmation email to you back in the day?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Weird, you don’t even see the “non bypassable charge” on your blue header bill? It’s about $10 per month you have to pay no matter what you consume or export.

Are you sure you got PTO? Did Tesla forward the PTO confirmation email to you back in the day?

The blue bill should only have the Minimum Daily Charge which is different than the Non-Bypassable Charges on the grid imported kWhs. Weirdly this is listed as NEM2PS, Net Energy Metering Pared Storage, Net Charges, but it is definitely the MDC for the period and not NBCs.

Mine also has the Silicon Valley Clean Energy generation charges and I would expect that is the same for anyone with a CCA and Powerwalls.

 

[miimura]

well there was absolutely no electric section for my home with powerwalls on the blue bill. just the gas and the new place. that's what's bothering me. is that normal? or are you saying that i won't see any paired storage home activity on the blue bill until a true-up occurs?

is the black and white bill only provided by mail?

You absolutely should have some electric portion on your blue bill. You should log in to your PG&E account and click on Accounts pull-down in the dark blue header bar. If you have more than one property, I would think you should have more than one account. When you pull down that list, you should have a link "My Accounts and Services". That will have the details about the Service IDs attached to your account. There should be entries that correspond to each meter on your account. I personally have two meters, one gas and one electric, but have three Service IDs. One of those Service IDs is my NEM-PS service and if you look at the details, you can get the PDF copies of the Black and White Paired Storage bill going all the way back to your PTO.

It seems like something is wrong with your account and I would call the Solar Customer Service Center (877) 743-4112 and ask them what's going on.

 

[holeydonut]

The blue bill should only have the Minimum Daily Charge which is different than the Non-Bypassable Charges on the grid imported kWhs. Weirdly this is listed as NEM2PS, Net Energy Metering Pared Storage, Net Charges, but it is definitely the MDC for the period and not NBCs.

Mine also has the Silicon Valley Clean Energy generation charges and I would expect that is the same for anyone with a CCA and Powerwalls.

Wait what... the MDC is not a NBC? Do NBC's come out of your true up at the end of the year then?

When is your TED talk?????

 

[getakey]

MDC is a fixed charge for your privilidge to connect to the grid. NBCs are based on your usage

 

[Redhill_qik]

Wait what... the MDC is not a NBC? Do NBC's come out of your true up at the end of the year then?

When is your TED talk?????

The Minimum Daily Charge (MDC) is the least amount that you will pay PG&E for connecting you to the grid which is currently $0.32854/day or $119.92/year. This goes up to $0.33260/day or $121.40/year on 1/1/2022.

At the annual True-Up if you are a net consumer (black bill Cumulative Energy Charges or Credits is positive) then the total of the MDCs that you already paid are subtracted from the Cumulative Non-Bypassable Charges plus the Cumulative Energy Charges (NBCs + Energy Charges - MDCs) . If the result is negative then you don't owe anything additional. If the result is positive than that is what you owe in addition to the MDCs that you have already paid. If you are with a CCA then there is a second True-Up that is usually in April when you will be billed for the cumulative net generation costs.

At the annual True-Up if you are a net generator (black bill Cumulative Energy Charges or Credits is negative) then total of the MDCs that you already paid is subtracted from only the Cumulative Non-Bypassable Charges (NBCs - MDCs). If the result is negative then you don't owe anything additional. If the result is positive than that is what you owe in addition to the MDCs that you have already paid. Also, if you aren't with a CCA then PG&E pays you $0.02-$0.03/kWh for the excess as credit on the bill. If you are with a CCA then that true-up is usually in April and you will likely get more back as either a bill credit or a check in the mail.

A TED talk would be too short to cover everything, I'm thinking of a 3 credit course for a semester.

 

[holeydonut]

The Minimum Daily Charge (MDC) is the least amount that you will pay PG&E for connecting you to the grid which is currently $0.32854/day or $119.92/year. This goes up to $0.33260/day or $121.40/year on 1/1/2022.

At the annual True-Up if you are a net consumer (black bill Cumulative Energy Charges or Credits is positive) then the total of the MDCs that you already paid are subtracted from the Cumulative Non-Bypassable Charges plus the Cumulative Energy Charges (NBCs + Energy Charges - MDCs) . If the result is negative then you don't owe anything additional. If the result is positive than that is what you owe in addition to the MDCs that you have already paid. If you are with a CCA then there is a second True-Up that is usually in April when you will be billed for the cumulative net generation costs.

At the annual True-Up if you are a net generator (black bill Cumulative Energy Charges or Credits is negative) then total of the MDCs that you already paid is subtracted from only the Cumulative Non-Bypassable Charges (NBCs - MDCs). If the result is negative then you don't owe anything additional. If the result is positive than that is what you owe in addition to the MDCs that you have already paid. Also, if you aren't with a CCA then PG&E pays you $0.02-$0.03/kWh for the excess as credit on the bill. If you are with a CCA then that true-up is usually in April and you will likely get more back as either a bill credit or a check in the mail.

A TED talk would be too short to cover everything, I'm thinking of a 3 credit course for a semester.

Got it, so the sweet spot is to get batteries to minimize the amount of NBC's sent back to PG&E...

If annual grid export were about 5,000 kWh and the NBC is $0.025 per kWh... the NBCs would basically be a wash against the MDCs?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Got it, so the sweet spot is to get batteries to minimize the amount of NBC's sent back to PG&E...

If annual grid export were about 5,000 kWh and the NBC is $0.025 per kWh... the NBCs would basically be a wash against the MDCs?

It really depends on if you are net consumer or a net generator.

The easiest scenario is as a net generator when you simply want to make sure that your NBCs don't exceed the MDCs. Current the NBC is $0.02252/kWh and the MDC is $0.32854/day which works out to 14.58 kWh of import per day to not pay anything extra. Since these are annual true-ups, this really means you can import up to 5,324 kWh for the year.

If you are net consumer it is more complicated, but I think the right strategy is to just simply avoid drawing from the grid during the most expensive Peak and Partial-Peak periods using the Powerwalls for the house loads while exporting all of your solar. This decreases the cumlative energy charges by not importing at high rates while maximizing energy credits by exporting at high rates and using the grid/solar for Off-Peak. The efficiency loss of the Powerwall the extra NBC for import while charging should be less than the differential.

I'm not on the EV2A plan with the Partial-Peak period, so I haven't done detailed cost analysis, but if your Powerwalls cannot meet your demand for the entire Peak plus Partial-Peak period, then I think using Solar for the house load during the Partial-Peak pre-Peak period with excess going to the grid might be slightly better than running the Powerwalls from the beginning until they hit your reserve limit and then need to draw from the grid again.

 

[holeydonut]

It really depends on if you are net consumer or a net generator.

The easiest scenario is as a net generator when you simply want to make sure that your NBCs don't exceed the MDCs. Current the NBC is $0.02252/kWh and the MDC is $0.32854/day which works out to 14.58 kWh of import per day to not pay anything extra. Since these are annual true-ups, this really means you can import up to 5,324 kWh for the year.

If you are net consumer it is more complicated, but I think the right strategy is to just simply avoid drawing from the grid during the most expensive Peak and Partial-Peak periods using the Powerwalls for the house loads while exporting all of your solar. This decreases the cumlative energy charges by not importing at high rates while maximizing energy credits by exporting at high rates and using the grid/solar for Off-Peak. The efficiency loss of the Powerwall the extra NBC for import while charging should be less than the differential.

I'm not on the EV2A plan with the Partial-Peak period, so I haven't done detailed cost analysis, but if your Powerwalls cannot meet your demand for the entire Peak plus Partial-Peak period, then I think using Solar for the house load during the Partial-Peak pre-Peak period with excess going to the grid might be slightly better than running the Powerwalls from the beginning until they hit your reserve limit and then need to draw from the grid again.

Have you done the math to consider that you may make more credit on EV2-A than you would on the normal TOU plans since you have Powerwalls? Does the more lucrative shoulder/peak daylight rate (when you're exporting 100% of the juice you produce) end up giving you more bank for your buck than the somewhat muted normal TOU rates? I guess the off-peak rate may be worth less and this all ends up being a wash so it's hard to tell since I don't know when your Powerwalls typically fill up.

My 3 Powerwalls typically fill up around 2pm. So most of my solar export (what little there is) snags me the higher EV2-A shoulder+peak rates. This is the only instance where PG&E forced me onto something (even though I actually tried to get on E-TOU-C), but the PG&E NEM2-MT rules actually did me a favor.

I guess the dream is still being able to charge the Powerwalls with off-peak energy (to make sure a household got enough cheap energy during the short winter days to never touch shoulder or peak time energy). I'm interested to see how many days this Winter are cloudy/rainy to the extent I can't get enough solar to ride through the peak times.

 

[h2ofun]

Have you done the math to consider that you may make more credit on EV2-A than you would on the normal TOU plans since you have Powerwalls? Does the more lucrative shoulder/peak daylight rate (when you're exporting 100% of the juice you produce) end up giving you more bank for your buck than the somewhat muted normal TOU rates? I guess the off-peak rate may be worth less and this all ends up being a wash so it's hard to tell since I don't know when your Powerwalls typically fill up.

My 3 Powerwalls typically fill up around 2pm. So most of my solar export (what little there is) snags me the higher EV2-A shoulder+peak rates. This is the only instance where PG&E forced me onto something (even though I actually tried to get on E-TOU-C), but the PG&E NEM2-MT rules actually did me a favor.

I guess the dream is still being able to charge the Powerwalls with off-peak energy (to make sure a household got enough cheap energy during the short winter days to never touch shoulder or peak time energy). I'm interested to see how many days this Winter are cloudy/rainy to the extent I can't get enough solar to ride through the peak times.

As we head into winter, and limited solar, shall be interesting for all of us with batteries. I am at 15% reserve, but may kick it up to like 75%

 

[astrorob]

well, i called and they claim my account is still being transitioned; the phone rep says their new guidance is that it can take 4 billing cycles for this to happen (up from 2 or 3, i can't remember exactly what they said.)

they said the B&W bill should be available online but it's sort of "hidden" - while they didn't come out and confirm it, it sounds like it could be buried on the "my services" page which is accessible from the little drop down menu at the top of the main account screen.

they also said at this time they have no plans to migrate NEM-PS customers to the blue bill. so it seems like we might be stuck with these industrial strength bills for a while.

anyway i just wanted to see how PGE thinks things are going NEM-wise... i know what PVOutput thinks but i wanted to cross-check that.

 

[Merrill]

I think the black and white bill is a joke, could you please make it more complicated.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Have you done the math to consider that you may make more credit on EV2-A than you would on the normal TOU plans since you have Powerwalls? Does the more lucrative shoulder/peak daylight rate (when you're exporting 100% of the juice you produce) end up giving you more bank for your buck than the somewhat muted normal TOU rates? I guess the off-peak rate may be worth less and this all ends up being a wash so it's hard to tell since I don't know when your Powerwalls typically fill up.

My 3 Powerwalls typically fill up around 2pm. So most of my solar export (what little there is) snags me the higher EV2-A shoulder+peak rates. This is the only instance where PG&E forced me onto something (even though I actually tried to get on E-TOU-C), but the PG&E NEM2-MT rules actually did me a favor.

I guess the dream is still being able to charge the Powerwalls with off-peak energy (to make sure a household got enough cheap energy during the short winter days to never touch shoulder or peak time energy). I'm interested to see how many days this Winter are cloudy/rainy to the extent I can't get enough solar to ride through the peak times.

I had a built a model pre-PTO that said that EV2-A was worse than either E-TOU-C or E-TOU-D and E-TOU-C was better than E-TOU-D, but I have learned some things since then so that model may have been off. EV2-A has 9 hours of Peak and Partial-Peak and getting through the entire 9 hours on just two Powerwalls while running the A/C in the summer is a difficult ask which means that I would be importing at the higher grid rate in the second Partial-Peak period.

I will need to dust everything off and make sure it is right to know for sure, but I will be surprised if the results actually change.

 

[holeydonut]

I had a built a model pre-PTO that said that EV2-A was worse than either E-TOU-C or E-TOU-D and E-TOU-C was better than E-TOU-D, but I have learned some things since then so that model may have been off. EV2-A has 9 hours of Peak and Partial-Peak and getting through the entire 9 hours on just two Powerwalls while running the A/C in the summer is a difficult ask which means that I would be importing at the higher grid rate in the second Partial-Peak period.

I will need to dust everything off and make sure it is right to know for sure, but I will be surprised if the results actually change.

I don't understand how running AC's is a problem for you in South SF. Nature gives you a free summertime AC unit.

But yeah, with 3 Powerwalls and 2 air conditioners... my shoulder+peak consumption during the summer from the grid was 2 kWh. I guess we'll see during the wintertime with the extra clouds and rains.

 

[miimura]

I don't understand how running AC's is a problem for you in South SF. Nature gives you a free summertime AC unit.

But yeah, with 3 Powerwalls and 2 air conditioners... my shoulder+peak consumption during the summer from the grid was 2 kWh. I guess we'll see during the wintertime with the extra clouds and rains.

South SF Bay != South SF.

He could be in San Jose or Morgan Hill which require a whole lot more A/C than the city of South San Francisco.

 

[holeydonut]

South SF Bay != South SF.

He could be in San Jose or Morgan Hill which require a whole lot more A/C than the city of South San Francisco.

Lol who writes it "South SF Bay" and means anywhere past San Jose? That's just South San Jose or Gilroy.

Like "South SF Bay" to me is Foster city or maybe Redwood Shores. Maybe down to Alviso but not like wayyy down there.

Morgan Hill is basically Fresno.

 

[h2ofun]

well, i called and they claim my account is still being transitioned; the phone rep says their new guidance is that it can take 4 billing cycles for this to happen (up from 2 or 3, i can't remember exactly what they said.)

they said the B&W bill should be available online but it's sort of "hidden" - while they didn't come out and confirm it, it sounds like it could be buried on the "my services" page which is accessible from the little drop down menu at the top of the main account screen.

they also said at this time they have no plans to migrate NEM-PS customers to the blue bill. so it seems like we might be stuck with these industrial strength bills for a while.

anyway i just wanted to see how PGE thinks things are going NEM-wise... i know what PVOutput thinks but i wanted to cross-check that.

Yep, it takes months, going through my 2nd true up round this year.

 

[SaveOurPlanet]

Lol who writes it "South SF Bay" and means anywhere past San Jose? That's just South San Jose or Gilroy.

Like "South SF Bay" to me is Foster city or maybe Redwood Shores. Maybe down to Alviso but not like wayyy down there.

Morgan Hill is basically Fresno.

You are too funny, Morgan Hill is not quite South Bay but hardly Fresno, last time I drove past it I believe it was still in Santa Clara County unless they moved it way South and East by about hundred something miles.

 

[holeydonut]

You are too funny, Morgan Hill is not quite South Bay but hardly Fresno, last time I drove past it I believe it was still in Santa Clara County unless they moved it way South and East by about hundred something miles.

Haha yeah I was being facetious. Fresno might as well be in Nevada...

But do you consider Morgan Hill, San Marin, or Gilroy be "South SF Bay?"