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This is good. Rivian got some of Tesla's least smart employees. Imagine the value of stock options they left on the table!

Culling the weakest members of the herd makes the herd stronger.

Especially given Tesla's inclusion now in the S&P today. Bet there are a lot of happy Tesla employees as well as long term investors out there AH. I know our solar installers were happy working for Tesla when they came out this summer. Even happier now I'd guess.

The Rivian pickup is a nice looking vehicle with some nice features and obvious BEV being a big one. Does look like a kind of traditional pickup if you don't look at the headlights. I didn't care for the SUV at all. All good for the world in any event.
 
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And when is Rivian going to start building them? People forget, but when the Model S started shipping in 2012, Tesla had been building Tesla service centers for at least five years.
Rivian has said they're starting with mobile service. Where those service vehicles will "home base," I cannot say. But that's my understanding at this point.
 
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And when is Rivian going to start building them? People forget, but when the Model S started shipping in 2012, Tesla had been building Tesla service centers for at least five years.

Unless the company refused to hire manufacturing engineers from automotive companies, you will find that the service & troubleshooting guides are already being written, special tools are being sourced, diagnostic software is being debugged, etc, etc, etc.

Modern auto servicing systems are computerized and have been for 30+ years. It's a known discipline. Off-the-shelf.

I can plug into web and access the central server and diagnose my cars, read the R&R procedures, and flash the cars as is necessary.* I work in a barn with a $6k lift. It's been this way since before Tesla Inc was even thought of.

Buildings are the least technical aspect of a service system. And they are plentiful right now because many auto dealers have went under since 2009.

* Except for Tesla cars.
 
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The one I reserved has 400+ miles of range (180kWh battery) for $79k. The base model (300+ miles) would have been $69k, as the larger battery was a $10k bump.

I'm still pondering the 180 kWh battery. $10,000 for 100 miles of extra range is a bargain in the EV world.
What I don't know is if I will have to give up anything for the 180 battery other than money and weight. For me, if I lose the spare tire well from getting the 180, and if it weighs so much more it reduces the capabilities... errr...

Johnny5.jpg


Since the configurator isn't locked down, I'd like more tech specs on the differences between the 135 and 180 kWh configurations. Will the 180 charge faster at CCS? Will the motors be more powerful for the 180?

For me 200 real world miles is enough for my usage. But as we know, battery size is more than just range. And that's the missing info.

Seat note: My MX has non-breathable seating. I actually sweat on my back in the sun and I have the tan interior. None of my other cars do this. So having ventilated seats is a plus for us.
 
Does that mean if I live in a place like Washington State and try to make a service appointment they will say "Would you like a spring appointment or a summer appointment"?
Perhaps you're right.

But I have to say, this kind of attitude reminds me an awful lot of how ICE enthusiasts treated Tesla in the early years. It's dismissive and exclusionary, and certainly not the attitude of someone who is rooting for widespread EV success. True Tesla fans should be hoping for the success of other manufacturers in this space, especially ones who aren't already established. As someone who has owned three Teslas, has posted nearly 10,000 messages on a Tesla forum and volunteers to try to help it run smoothly, I clearly have plenty invested in watching Tesla continue to succeed. But I know their success also depends on competition, and if we are to shrink the size of the ICE fleet over time, we need more manufacturers building compelling EVs. My next Tesla will be a better vehicle if there's an alternative to shop it against.

We should all be rooting for these efforts. They consist of hundreds of employees working to make something difficult a reality. If they appear to be a scam, sure - call them out. But if they're merely a startup, there's really nothing to gain by hoping for their failure. We all lose.

As it sits, I'm rooting for Rivian's success. That's why I reserved one, and why I'm going to be understanding when it's not as well evolved as my newest Model X. Or incredibly impressed if it is.
 
Perhaps you're right.

But I have to say, this kind of attitude reminds me an awful lot of how ICE enthusiasts treated Tesla in the early years. It's dismissive and exclusionary, and certainly not the attitude of someone who is rooting for widespread EV success. True Tesla fans should be hoping for the success of other manufacturers in this space, especially ones who aren't already established.

Well you're wrong and I have at least 50 posts right here on TMC that show I AM rooting for the success of EV's across the board. I have specifically argued that Tesla's competition in the EV space is not Tesla's primary competition (ICE vehicles are) and that Tesla will sell every EV they can make for as far as the eye can see. So you have me pegged wrong wrong.

That said, I'm buying an Electric truck as soon as available to replace my F-150. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a Cybertruck for a whole host of reasons but I'm keeping an open mind with regard to the competition. But I would be foolish to not consider how I'm going to get warranty service (and how likely warranty service will be).

I clearly have plenty invested in watching Tesla continue to succeed. But I know their success also depends on competition, and if we are to shrink the size of the ICE fleet over time, we need more manufacturers building compelling EVs. My next Tesla will be a better vehicle if there's an alternative to shop it against.

I believe you are wrong about Tesla's success being dependent upon the competition. Tesla competes against ICE vehicles primarily and their stated goal is transition us away from fossil fuels. While help from competitors will help us get to that goal more quickly, it won't make Tesla products any better and the lack of competition would not threaten Tesla (and it hasn't threatened Tesla to date). Tesla is driven by their goal, not by competing against other EV makers who are trying to achieve the same thing they are.

I'm offended that you grouped me in with those who do not want the transition to EV's to be as quick and successful as possible. Rivian would give me more warm-fuzzies if they hadn't back-stabbed Tesla and stolen from them. I believe in playing fair, paying your own way and not cheating. There was nothing accidental about Rivian's management soliciting the theft of Tesla's hard work. It's disgraceful actually.

We should all be rooting for these efforts. They consist of hundreds of employees working to make something difficult a reality.

True. And hopefully the efforts are the work of your own employees, not the work of a competitors employees that you have stolen without compensation.
 
I'm offended that you grouped me in with those who do not want the transition to EV's to be as quick and successful as possible. Rivian would give me more warm-fuzzies if they hadn't back-stabbed Tesla and stolen from them.
Well, I certainly didn't intend to offend you, but I stand by my comment. You have had two recent comments that were dismissive of Rivian in a way that is very similar to how ICE enthusiasts treated us.

Regarding Rivian "back-stabbing" Tesla and "stealing," you seem to be referring to the situation where a Tesla ex-employee voluntarily took a list of Tesla employees directly to Rivian, correct? I agree that the person who took the info was in the wrong. If Rivian was somehow involved in that decision, they are also wrong. However, the last time I checked, that hasn't been the allegation. It was an HR employee who took an employee list to them. There were no trade secrets or business plans - just a list of important personnel.

If Rivian requested it and used it indiscriminately, shame on them. And I hope they are penalized appropriately in court. But I am not ready to overstate their involvement until that's shown.
 
Well, I certainly didn't intend to offend you, but I stand by my comment. You have had two recent comments that were dismissive of Rivian in a way that is very similar to how ICE enthusiasts treated us.

Regarding Rivian "back-stabbing" Tesla and "stealing," you seem to be referring to the situation where a Tesla ex-employee voluntarily took a list of Tesla employees directly to Rivian, correct? I agree that the person who took the info was in the wrong. If Rivian was somehow involved in that decision, they are also wrong. However, the last time I checked, that hasn't been the allegation. It was an HR employee who took an employee list to them. There were no trade secrets or business plans - just a list of important personnel.

If Rivian requested it and used it indiscriminately, shame on them. And I hope they are penalized appropriately in court. But I am not ready to overstate their involvement until that's shown.

No, I'm talking about all the internal Tesla documents that were stolen from Tesla after Rivian provided a list of things that would interest them. Maybe you haven't read the court filings yet. I recommend you do.

Even given this, I hope Rivian succeeds. But, yeah, I don't feel the warm fuzzies I would have felt had Rivian behaved more honorably.
 
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I'm still pondering the 180 kWh battery. $10,000 for 100 miles of extra range is a bargain in the EV world.
What I don't know is if I will have to give up anything for the 180 battery other than money and weight. For me, if I lose the spare tire well from getting the 180, and if it weighs so much more it reduces the capabilities... errr...

View attachment 609159

Since the configurator isn't locked down, I'd like more tech specs on the differences between the 135 and 180 kWh configurations. Will the 180 charge faster at CCS? Will the motors be more powerful for the 180?

For me 200 real world miles is enough for my usage. But as we know, battery size is more than just range. And that's the missing info.

Seat note: My MX has non-breathable seating. I actually sweat on my back in the sun and I have the tan interior. None of my other cars do this. So having ventilated seats is a plus for us.

If you need 300 miles of range I would go with the max pack going off of the 20-80% usage theory and for faster DC charging
 
No, I'm talking about all the internal Tesla documents that were stolen from Tesla after Rivian provided a list of things that would interest them. Maybe you haven't read the court filings yet. I recommend you do.
I have. They are allegations, of course. And my summary was pretty intact. The internal documents are salary numbers, at least the ones at the heart of it. There's also a powerpoint presentation on recruiting processes.

PDF attached for your (and others') reference.
 

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Can't seem fo find any details on Rivian OTA updates or AP. Nothing indicating what you get with the basic truck and what will be additional cost. Also just what features are you getting for AP. Anybody got a link to something?

Can't believe they are going to sell a truck with a bed that short. I was so going to reserve on but when I realized the bed was less than 5 ft... game over. This is probably why they only have about 30k preorders. I love everything else about the R1T but will not buy one for that simple flaw. I'm sure they will sell tons and hope they will give me something in the future. That's why I'm watching Rivian in prep for their eventual IPO.

Can't even consider the cybertruck even though it does give me the basic stuff I need in spades. Just too ugly. Maybe the promised redesign will soften that face. Looks like I will have to wait to see Ford's final design.
 
I have. They are allegations, of course. And my summary was pretty intact. The internal documents are salary numbers, at least the ones at the heart of it. There's also a powerpoint presentation on recruiting processes.

PDF attached for your (and others') reference.

Wow! Are you trying to justify the theft by implying that the information stolen was inconsequential? The theft goes well beyond salary numbers and the recruiting process that you mention.

And of course they are only allegations at this point of the lawsuit. But Tesla has the evidence to back them up (logs of departing employees computer activities including e-mailing the proprietary info outside of Tesla). Are you suggesting that this is all some sort of coincidence (that the info was requested by Rivian right before the departing Tesla employees e-mailed it)? Or that Tesla might have doctored their computer logs to falsely implicate these ex-employees?

I feel like I have entered the twilight zone here. I absolutely hate it when people steal what is not theirs. Implying that Tesla might be making false accusations or trying to minimize the extent of the theft is taking it to another level. It's pretty obvious what happened here, the only question is what the impact will be to Rivian. I was ready to move on from this black mark on Rivian's reputation but it's kind of difficult to do when there are people trying to minimize the severity of what actually occurred or pretend that it might not have happened. It amounts to justifying thievery by saying "it was only a pencil and eraser". Which of course is not even true.
 
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Wow! Are you trying to justify the theft by implying that the information stolen was inconsequential? The theft goes well beyond salary numbers and the recruiting process that you mention.

And of course they are only allegations at this point of the lawsuit. But Tesla has the evidence to back them up (logs of departing employees computer activities including e-mailing the proprietary info outside of Tesla). Are you suggesting that this is all some sort of coincidence (that the info was requested by Rivian right before the departing Tesla employees e-mailed it)? Or that Tesla might have doctored their computer logs to falsely implicate these ex-employees?

I feel like I have entered the twilight zone here. I absolutely hate it when people steal what is not theirs. Implying that Tesla might be making false accusations or trying to minimize the extent of the theft is taking it to another level. It's pretty obvious what happened here, the only question is what the impact will be to Rivian. I was ready to move on from this black mark on Rivian's reputation but it's kind of difficult to do when there are people trying to minimize the severity of what actually occurred or pretend that it might not have happened. It amounts to justifying thievery by saying "it was only a pencil and eraser". Which of course is not even true.
You seem to misread and misinterpret everything I post, so there is no point continuing. I’ll just finalize by saying that nothing is proven - Rivian denies wrongdoing and the courts will vet the case. I’ll hold my conclusion until that time, as we do here outside of the twilight zone.
 
I will admit Rivian employees pissing off Tesla enough for them to sue them is a sore point. Rivian seemed like such an obvious candidate to partner with Tesla on the Super Charger network until this case. Imagine if the Rivians being configure now could go on the Supercharger network. They would sell like hotcakes. The only reason I even consider buying a Rivian that uses EA network primarily is because I have a MX in my garage now and a MY on order so can navigate my long distance with those until EA and maybe Rivian's own network mature. Not being on the Super Charger network, though, was a real missed opportunity IMO.
 
Can't seem fo find any details on Rivian OTA updates or AP. Nothing indicating what you get with the basic truck and what will be additional cost. Also just what features are you getting for AP. Anybody got a link to something?

Can't believe they are going to sell a truck with a bed that short. I was so going to reserve on but when I realized the bed was less than 5 ft... game over. This is probably why they only have about 30k preorders. I love everything else about the R1T but will not buy one for that simple flaw. I'm sure they will sell tons and hope they will give me something in the future. That's why I'm watching Rivian in prep for their eventual IPO.

Can't even consider the cybertruck even though it does give me the basic stuff I need in spades. Just too ugly. Maybe the promised redesign will soften that face. Looks like I will have to wait to see Ford's final design.


I have no confidence in Ford

You may have a decision to make Form or Function

I reserved a Tri motor solely on the range, IMO it is the best EV bargain. Will use as a daily driver, I already own a Toyota Tundra if I need to work
 
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I'm still pondering the 180 kWh battery. $10,000 for 100 miles of extra range is a bargain in the EV world.
What I don't know is if I will have to give up anything for the 180 battery other than money and weight. For me, if I lose the spare tire well from getting the 180, and if it weighs so much more it reduces the capabilities... errr...

The 180 battery is really useful for towing. The 135 with a trailer will struggle to get 150 mi. The 180 should be just enough to get you 200 mi even with a decent sized trailer.

If you don't tow, the extra range from the 180 will not be worth it. You are not going to go between 300-400 miles without a charging stop enough times to make up for the $10k price.

(Same for the 500mi Cybertruck. The point of a 500mi range Cybertruck is to get 250mi with a trailer.)
 
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I'll be replacing my 2012 Tundra with an electric truck. Just want something that is good enough to work as a real truck. Had a Honda Ridgeline with a much smaller bed (still bigger than the Rivian) and replaced it after one too many overloaded Craig's list trips. The lower bed sides were always a concern and loading any real load gravel, refrigerator, etc was a challenge. When you need a real truck, you need a real truck.

The wife says I could always rent a trailer (for the Rivian) but that is a PITA inconvenience I'm just not willing to put up with. Does anyone know if it even comes with a towing receiver?

We don't use the truck as a daily driver. I may have to wait for Rivian's next generation R1T. You're correct, I don't trust Ford will do this right. Maybe Cybertruck will be better in the flesh. The reality I don't want to admit to is that I'll probably have to wait a couple more years to see who actually comes thru with something to really challenge the existing truck market.
 
I'm not sure if suing people who leave their jobs for more money and better benefits has ever worked.
The 180 battery is really useful for towing. The 135 with a trailer will struggle to get 150 mi. The 180 should be just enough to get you 200 mi even with a decent sized trailer.

If you don't tow, the extra range from the 180 will not be worth it. You are not going to go between 300-400 miles without a charging stop enough times to make up for the $10k price.

(Same for the 500mi Cybertruck. The point of a 500mi range Cybertruck is to get 250mi with a trailer.)

Here's the worst possible scenario:
The 180 has a lower payload.
The 180 loses the spare tire well.
It charges at the same rate as the 135.
It gets less mi / kWh due to unladen weight increase.
It has the same HP, so is slower than the 135.
It gets stuck in sand easier.

The best:

180 has a higher payload due to stronger spring rates and dampening.
It retains the spare tire.
It charges faster.
The difference in mi / kWh is negligible.
It has more HP and is quicker.
Nearly impossible to bury either model.
 
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