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Lawsuit over FSD claims allowed to proceed

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Not sure if he specifically used the word "autonomous", but he did tweet quite a few times over the last 2 years about robo taxi. He also said we'll have cross country summon. I would think he meant the cars will be full autonomous in all of those tweets, unless a robo taxi needs a monitor all the time?
Well, Waymo needs a babysitter support vehicle nearby with a driver to unstick when it gets stuck. At construction cones, for instance. :cool:
 
Not sure if he specifically used the word "autonomous", but he did tweet quite a few times over the last 2 years about robo taxi. He also said we'll have cross country summon. I would think he meant the cars will be full autonomous in all of those tweets, unless a robo taxi needs a monitor all the time?


But again these are all aspirational future-feature statements.

Not "Here's what you get TODAY for buying it"

The only thing a post 3/19 buyer could reasonably sue over is the promise to deliver city streets (at level 2 BTW, not fully autonomous) by end of 2019 (and again by end of 2020).


Pre 3/19 buyers would have a basis for a suit in 2 possible cases:

1) Tesla admits they can't EVER deliver L4 or better on current cars
or
2) Tesla is unable to deliver L4 or better by whatever you can convince a jury is the reasonable lifetime of the vehicle (2 possible milestones here would be ~6 years which is the average length of US car ownership or 12 years (average age of a car on the road in the US today)

None of those have happened yet though (6 years for the very very very earliest FSD buyers would be roughly November 2022)





He's discussing the price of the vehicle once they are selling an autonomous one being much higher

Not "Our current vehicles are autonomous"

In fact by pointing out the difference he's making clear the current cars are NOT autonomous today- otherwise they'd be priced much higher.
 
Thanks. 2019. Seems that is the year after which (remember, what did the FSD page say at that time? That's the only one that counts!)2019 and later FSD expectations for robotaxi are not reasonable, given all references on the official web page where one actually agrees to a contract to purchase it that merely said "autosteer on city streets coming."

So the latter expectation is reasonable (and will actually happen), while it seems to me that pre 2019 purchasers relying on robotaxi/fully autonomous driving have a stronger case for a partial refund if L2 is the end of the line for HW3 and current camera suite.
 
At least the car is technically self-charging though I admit that makes it sound like some sort of perpetual motion machine. Is Toyota still advertising that way? I take it that they got a lot of criticism.
Autopilot is much less clearly defined for cars than self-driving which before FSD meant a car capable of driving itself. It just seems deceptive to take a term that already exists, add "Full" to the front of it and then say what you actually mean is "Not."

GM used the term autopilot in 1956 for a future self-driving system:
View attachment 695104

Wow even in 1956 people understood that Autopilot is at least a Level 3 system.
 
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You mean like Toyota did when they were advertising their "self charging" hybrids?

Also, since folks complain about the Autopilot name- did you know it was originally used by Chrysler? In 1958? It was the name of their dumb cruise control system.
For the sake of curiosity, here in Norway, our National consumer agency instructed Lexus to stop their advertising of the "self charging hybrid", because it was false and would lead customers to buy a car they would not otherwise do. Forbrukertilsynet: Lexus driver villedende hybridbil-markedsføring

But our consumer laws protect the people, the consumers; not the big corporation, but in a balanced way. A seller is not allowed to make contracts or agreements that invalidate the consumer law. That means sales material and marketing can not diverge from the delivered product.

Delayed delivery will grant the buyer the right to 1) full refund (buyers decision) 2) change to a similar product or 3) buying a similar product from another vendor, expenses paid by first seller.

So possibly, if Mereceds EQS delivers the first level 3 system here, one might argue that Tesla could have to take back an FSD Model S and pay for an EQS to that customer, if that customer has waited for FSD for years. Link to the law
 
For the sake of curiosity, here in Norway, our National consumer agency instructed Lexus to stop their advertising of the "self charging hybrid", because it was false and would lead customers to buy a car they would not otherwise do. Forbrukertilsynet: Lexus driver villedende hybridbil-markedsføring

But our consumer laws protect the people, the consumers; not the big corporation, but in a balanced way. A seller is not allowed to make contracts or agreements that invalidate the consumer law. That means sales material and marketing can not diverge from the delivered product.

Delayed delivery will grant the buyer the right to 1) full refund (buyers decision) 2) change to a similar product or 3) buying a similar product from another vendor, expenses paid by first seller.

So possibly, if Mereceds EQS delivers the first level 3 system here, one might argue that Tesla could have to take back an FSD Model S and pay for an EQS to that customer, if that customer has waited for FSD for years. Link to the law


Since Tesla never promised an L3 system (and I have a lot of doubt the EQS will deliver one of any use- remember when Audi promised to in 2018?) I find that conclusion unlikely... but your general point that EU consumer law is vastly different from the US is entirely accurate.
 
For the sake of curiosity, here in Norway, our National consumer agency instructed Lexus to stop their advertising of the "self charging hybrid", because it was false and would lead customers to buy a car they would not otherwise do. Forbrukertilsynet: Lexus driver villedende hybridbil-markedsføring

But our consumer laws protect the people, the consumers; not the big corporation, but in a balanced way. A seller is not allowed to make contracts or agreements that invalidate the consumer law. That means sales material and marketing can not diverge from the delivered product.
If only we could get consumer-friendly laws passed. Have you read the news about recent legislation? :)
 
Tesla sold me a vehicle with FSD promised by end of year two years ago. This year I finally got FSD beta after being luck enough to drive for two weeks with a 99% ratting. Now after having a driving for months safely, I received two disconnects one while I was at a stop light. This week I was almost disconnected while at a dead stop. So, to meet Tesla requirements for FSD you have to split your time looking at the road and then the dash every few seconds. FSD and the monitoring system is fun to drive but is definitely faulty. We are supposed to give Tesla latitude, but they give us none. But back to the point at hand FSD with Vision only will never be Full Self Driving because of weather conditions. Once he disconnected radar, he disconnected the potential of FSD under all conditions. That should be the basis of a lawsuit. FSD will never fully work with visual only.
 
Well, from what I've experienced, most humans are really not up to the task. So he may be on to something.

In any event, amazing how many people opine on what it takes, to do autonomous driving with so little substantiation.
From neurotray dot com, referencing a japanese study from a few years back....


"If we could film a second of our lives in slow motion, we would see that the brain takes that time to become abuzz. In a second each neuron connects with another about 200 times, that means that it registers about 20,000,000,000,000,000 bits of information per second (20 trillion impulses full of information). As powerful as it is, no machine can imitate that speed.

In fact, scientists from the Okinawa Institute of Technology tried to reproduce the activity of a second of brain life on a computer. It took 83 thousand processors with the highest possible computing power and 40 minutes of work to get close to the efficiency of a single second of our neurons."

Since then, studies have shown that the human brain is actually many times more complex and efficient.
 
The human brain is amazing, but it's also terrible at multitasking. And our reaction time is too slow. Why do you think people hate aimbots in video games - because the computer can react, lock on, and kill its target before the human brain can even register the enemy was there. We also can't focus on more than a dead-center pinpoint - everything outside the exact center of your vision is blurred, forcing you to move your eyes constantly to focus on something you saw, or thought you saw. Because we also have visual artifacts and "imagination" which create illusions in our field of view - "I could have swore I saw...". Our concentration also varies depending on many factors. "Never drive angry!" is a classic moto, because humans in rage don't focus on driving properly - we're distracted by our anger, and looping back to humans are bad at multitasking, being pissed and driving means we're not doing either well. :)

I'll remind people that, even with our amazing human brains that process 20 trillion operations per second, there were 43,000 car crash deaths in 2021. Is it really that we can't process enough info to drive, or that our brains just aren't capable of performing the task properly with all the other flotsam of being alive?
 
From neurotray dot com, referencing a japanese study from a few years back....


"If we could film a second of our lives in slow motion, we would see that the brain takes that time to become abuzz. In a second each neuron connects with another about 200 times, that means that it registers about 20,000,000,000,000,000 bits of information per second (20 trillion impulses full of information). As powerful as it is, no machine can imitate that speed.

In fact, scientists from the Okinawa Institute of Technology tried to reproduce the activity of a second of brain life on a computer. It took 83 thousand processors with the highest possible computing power and 40 minutes of work to get close to the efficiency of a single second of our neurons."

Since then, studies have shown that the human brain is actually many times more complex and efficient.
Nobody is trying to reproduce the human brain. Brains do many, many things while driving that have nothing to do with driving. Those things often conflict with what it takes to drive. Human brains feel emotions and become distracted by non-driving problems, appreciate the wildflowers along the side of the road and countless other things all in parallel with driving (or anything else we do).

The fact that the human brain has X amount of equivalent computing power (if such a thing can be quantified. Brains are not computers) does not mean that machines cannot do many of the things that humans do. In fact, machines do many things faster and better than humans, despite our vastly superior processing power. The best computer chess engines have become unbeatable.
 
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Tesla sold me a vehicle with FSD promised by end of year two years ago. This year I finally got FSD beta after being luck enough to drive for two weeks with a 99% ratting. Now after having a driving for months safely, I received two disconnects one while I was at a stop light. This week I was almost disconnected while at a dead stop. So, to meet Tesla requirements for FSD you have to split your time looking at the road and then the dash every few seconds. FSD and the monitoring system is fun to drive but is definitely faulty. We are supposed to give Tesla latitude, but they give us none. But back to the point at hand FSD with Vision only will never be Full Self Driving because of weather conditions. Once he disconnected radar, he disconnected the potential of FSD under all conditions. That should be the basis of a lawsuit. FSD will never fully work with visual only.

That's all fine and good, but why did you resurrect a thread from last year?

There are plenty of new threads talking about the FSD Driver Monitoring system that was more appropriate for your post.