Leaf a cash cow?

[twonius]

I was thinking a bit about how the leaf still uses a 40kwh air cooled battery in comparison to what we're seeing from Hyundai/Kia and Chevy.

We always hear about the magic $100/kwh mark but as far as I can tell that's based on a small EV with a 50-60kwh battery.
http://www.automotivebusiness.com.br/abinteligencia/pdf/EV-Price-Parity-Report.pdf

Today we're rapidly approaching that price level (2021?) but for a 40kwh Leaf it seems like they'd be making a healthy profit when you compare its $30k msrp to a Sentra or even Versa.

 

[Kandiru]

Stay away, far away from any air cooled EV. Battery degradation is real and significant. You cannot stop the car in 100F weather, yet the air is an inefficient medium for heat dissipation.

Air cooled EVs are typical ICE quota car aftermarket brain farts, slap an EV powertrain on an ICE chassis and lets make some money.

 

[twonius]

Stay away, far away from any air cooled EV. Battery degradation is real and significant. You cannot stop the car in 100F weather, yet the air is an inefficient medium for heat dissipation.

Air cooled EVs are typical ICE quota car aftermarket brain farts, slap an EV powertrain on an ICE chassis and lets make some money.

I think in the long term, as infrastructure improves air cooled will still make sense if you're making cars for developing countries, which will be a growing market for cars while the US and Europe stagnate or decline. Although I'm not that familiar with the Chinese market only EVs. Perhaps they're able to package liquid cooling while still keeping the cost low.

But yes, I would probably buy a Soul EV instead for the reason you stated.

 

[glhs272]

I think in the long term, as infrastructure improves air cooled will still make sense if you're making cars for developing countries, which will be a growing market for cars while the US and Europe stagnate or decline. Although I'm not that familiar with the Chinese market only EVs. Perhaps they're able to package liquid cooling while still keeping the cost low.

But yes, I would probably buy a Soul EV instead for the reason you stated.

Well the Soul EV threads don't look very promising in terms of battery degradation either...

 

[S'toon]

I think in the long term, as infrastructure improves air cooled will still make sense if you're making cars for developing countries, which will be a growing market for cars while the US and Europe stagnate or decline. Although I'm not that familiar with the Chinese market only EVs. Perhaps they're able to package liquid cooling while still keeping the cost low.

But yes, I would probably buy a Soul EV instead for the reason you stated.

I disagree. Developing countries tend to be hotter countries. Where the battery degradation will be experienced the most. Therefore not a good fit.

 

[suwaneedad]

Stay away, far away from any air cooled EV. Battery degradation is real and significant. You cannot stop the car in 100F weather, yet the air is an inefficient medium for heat dissipation.

Air cooled EVs are typical ICE quota car aftermarket brain farts, slap an EV powertrain on an ICE chassis and lets make some money.

Have to say that my experience has been much different. I get the physics involved, but for my LEAF in service for 7 years and 75,650 miles, my cost of ownership has been $6,000 net of fuel and maint savings. Nissan replaced the gen1 battery pack for the lizard pack, which has to date been super. That's a ridiculously cheap vehicle, for its local use case. And I paid sticker for my LEAF (before $12,500 of tax credits). I will be stunned if Tesla reliability is anywhere close to my LEAF's reliability. Seven years and the sole maintenance spend has been $21 for the driver's window switch that died at 57k miles and 4.5 years of age. I literally can't spend money on the LEAF. A few more years of use and I will have been paid to own the LEAF (vs comparable ICE). I will get there with my Model 3 as well, depending on its maintenance needs.

 

[ewoodrick]

Stay away, far away from any air cooled EV. Battery degradation is real and significant. You cannot stop the car in 100F weather, yet the air is an inefficient medium for heat dissipation.

Air cooled EVs are typical ICE quota car aftermarket brain farts, slap an EV powertrain on an ICE chassis and lets make some money.

This is so much bullcrap that it is ridiculous. Have you owned or driven one? Or are you watching YouTube videos?

I've had 2 Leafs and they haven't exhibited any of the issues that you refer to. I had my 2015 Leaf for 4 years and it still had 97% range and I never had a problem charging nor braking. My 2018 Leaf is doing just as well. Both Leafs actually do regen much better than the Tesla, as the brake pedal actually turns on regen. And I NEVER had a problem with regen when it was cold, NEVER.
I'm in Atlanta, and it gets warm down here, never an issue with heat.

I just hate these idiots who watch one guys videos and become an expert.

The Leaf is actually one of the highest selling cars world-wide and especially in Europe.

Sure, the early Leafs may have had some issues with the batteries, I'm pretty sure the Tesla's did as well.

I'm surprised that you haven't called the Model 3 a piece of junk because of its issues when cold, not allowing regen. My Leaf doesn't have these issues!

 

[jkoya]

We had a 2012 Leaf with capacity loss and missed the class action lawsuit battery replacement by 9 months. Before getting rid of the car in December, I could actually drive our 2016 Volt further on battery than the Leaf. I do admit the Leaf was very reliable, but the cost to replace the battery pack and the 3.3 kwh onboard charger were enough for us to replace it with the Model 3.....I guess I just have bad luck with Nissans.

 

[suwaneedad]

We had a 2012 Leaf with capacity loss and missed the class action lawsuit battery replacement by 9 months. Before getting rid of the car in December, I could actually drive our 2016 Volt further on battery than the Leaf. I do admit the Leaf was very reliable, but the cost to replace the battery pack and the 3.3 kwh onboard charger were enough for us to replace it with the Model 3.....I guess I just have bad luck with Nissans.

That's a bummer re your LEAF. Nissan tried to screw me out of the battery warranty and within 24 hours of me starting a claim with the BBB/lemon law kind of thing here in Georgia, 'coincidentally' Nissan US Corporate called me to let me know my new pack was on its way to my local dealer. I was really furious that Nissan was trying so hard to screw early adopters of the LEAF, but time has healed that wound as the new pack has been terrific. (I lost my 4th capacity bar at 57k and with about 3 months remaining on the 5yr warranty. I was driving the LEAF fairly hard in that last year to ensure I lost my 4th bar in time...100% overnight charges, for example.)

 

[Evoforce]

I still own 2 Leafs. Batteries have had to be replaced in both. Both are coming up on needing replacements again. Depreciation is through the roof. Kia Soul is no better in hotter temps either! The 2019 Nissan Leaf we were hoping would finally go with liquid cooling but they dropped the ball again. Nissan Leaf is a dead horse for many parts of this country and many others. People in milder parts of this country may have no idea how bad a Leaf is in hotter climates or they just refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[jkoya]

People in milder parts of this country may have no idea how bad a Leaf is in hotter climates or they just refuse to acknowledge it.

I agree with you completely. The summers in Sacramento, CA are hot and having to park on asphalt in the afternoon summer heat didn't help at all.

 

[RubberToe]

Well the Soul EV threads don't look very promising in terms of battery degradation either...

My 2015 Soul EV is down to 54 miles range. They reset the battery computer a month ago and we are back to <60. We will get a new battery for free, and be very careful driving fast in hot weather which is the likely issue. Just FYI, sorry for the off topic reply.

RT

 

[jkoya]

That's a bummer re your LEAF. Nissan tried to screw me out of the battery warranty and within 24 hours of me starting a claim with the BBB/lemon law kind of thing here in Georgia, 'coincidentally' Nissan US Corporate called me to let me know my new pack was on its way to my local dealer. I was really furious that Nissan was trying so hard to screw early adopters of the LEAF, but time has healed that wound as the new pack has been terrific. (I lost my 4th capacity bar at 57k and with about 3 months remaining on the 5yr warranty. I was driving the LEAF fairly hard in that last year to ensure I lost my 4th bar in time...100% overnight charges, for example.)

I'm glad you got the batteries replaced by Nissan !! The local Nissan dealership, whose service department is terrible, quoted us a $12,000 estimate to replace the batteries (parts, labor and recycle fee). A car the Leaf replaced was a Nissan Murano that went through 3 alternators (replaced by warranty and a recall) and a failing fuel filler door. I think I have a Nissan curse, as I also had problems with a 1990 300ZX and a 2004 350Z.

 

[jkoya]

My 2015 Soul EV is down to 54 miles range. They reset the battery computer a month ago and we are back to <60. We will get a new battery for free, and be very careful driving fast in hot weather which is the likely issue. Just FYI, sorry for the off topic reply.

For your 2015 Soul EV - what is the battery size and what was the theoretical range on a full charge ?

 

[RubberToe]

For your 2015 Soul EV - what is the battery size and what was the theoretical range on a full charge ?

92 EPA range. And it did that for several years. Using TorquePro dongle to watch battery state of health. 27kWh battery when new.

 

[twonius]

So the ironic conclusion seems to be that short range EVs are more expensive to produce than they seem due to warranty costs on the packs.

 

[suwaneedad]

I'm glad you got the batteries replaced by Nissan !! The local Nissan dealership, whose service department is terrible, quoted us a $12,000 estimate to replace the batteries (parts, labor and recycle fee). A car the Leaf replaced was a Nissan Murano that went through 3 alternators (replaced by warranty and a recall) and a failing fuel filler door. I think I have a Nissan curse, as I also had problems with a 1990 300ZX and a 2004 350Z.

Dang that's brutal! My 2000 Maxima was the best car I had ever owned until my ~free LEAF came into my life, and now of course both have been eclipsed by Model 3 (long-term cost/reliability TBD). My two Nissans have blown away my experiences with Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Volvo. Lexus and Toyota experiences have been nearly as good as my Nissans, but not quite.