Leaf and Volt "torquey"? Really?

[Slackjaw]

Always nice to see any pro-Tesla media coverage, but is this guy smoking crack, comparing the Roadster, Leaf and Volt? Just curious because I haven't driven or even seen any of those cars...

3. The electric cars actually have some high-end car characteristics. For example, they are quiet. More quiet than a Rolls Royce, perhaps. They also have a lot of torque, making for a tremendous power rush when you step on the accelerator. You don't need to be a greenie-weenie to want an electric car -- you may just want a particular form of quiet high-end performance. Tesla has shown this with its first model, the Roadster, but Nissan and Chevrolet are now delivering these quiet and torquey cars at these very reasonable prices -- $22,500 and $32,500 after tax incentives.

complete article:

from "Silent Sales Success: Plug-In Electric Cars"

 

[TEG]

The specs for the Leaf (280 Nm / 207 ft-lbs.) actually showing it as having similar peak torque to the 2008 base Roadster!
Nissan Leaf (2010) - maximum torque

But, other factors such as width of the torque peak, weight, gearing and max battery current output leave the Leaf no where near as capable acceleration-wise as a Roadster.
I have driven them back to back and it is a huge difference for sure.

But I think the point of the article was just to say that electric motors do well torque wise compared to their ICE counterparts for a similar vehicle.
The Leaf feels peppy for an entry level family car.
The Roadster feels peppy for a sports car.

 

[EVNow]

The Leaf feels peppy for an entry level family car.
The Roadster feels peppy for a sports car.

I wonder how ESFlow will compare to Roadster whenever it comes out.

 

[qwk]

I wonder how ESFlow will compare to Roadster whenever it comes out.

It definately will not be 3.7s 0-60mph. If Nissan uses off the shelf parts from the Leaf, like the have mentioned, it's probably going to be rather sad.

 

[benji4]

I wonder how ESFlow will compare to Roadster whenever it comes out.

< 5 sec.

•ESFLOW - a pure EV sports car concept
•Rear-wheel drive two-seater
•Two electric motors, each driving a rear wheel
•Laminated lithium-ion batteries mounted low for best weight distribution
•Dramatic styling with wraparound windscreen for unobstructed visibility
•0-100km/h in under 5 seconds
•Over 240kms on one charge

asahi.com NISSAN ESFLOW - Putting the spark into electric vehicles - English

 

[EVNow]

It definately will not be 3.7s 0-60mph. If Nissan uses off the shelf parts from the Leaf, like the have mentioned, it's probably going to be rather sad.

Would it make that much of a difference if it was 4.5 sec - esp. for a third of the price ?

 

[EVNow]

< 5 sec.

asahi.com NISSAN ESFLOW - Putting the spark into electric vehicles - English

Offtopic question.

Do you know where to get Leaf delivery numbers in Japan (for March) ?

 

[qwk]

Would it make that much of a difference if it was 4.5 sec - esp. for a third of the price ?

I think you are dreaming if you think that the Esflow will cost 1/3 of the roadster.

 

[EVNow]

I think you are dreaming if you think that the Esflow will cost 1/3 of the roadster.

I know you are hoping it doesn't - but there isn't much difference in terms of material cost between Leaf & ESFlow to make it cost much more than Leaf.

BTW, are you following ESFlow story enough to know the details (since you apparently didn't know about the less than 5 sec) ? Nissan has already talked about the likely price, if it gets made.

Nissan ESFlow Electric Sportscar Concept: 10 Facts You Didn't Know

Nissan ESFlow Electric Sportscar Concept: 10 Facts You Didn't Know

- If Made, The ESFlow Would Be Priced Between $34,000 and $40,000
- The ESFLOW is Not the Next Tesla : Instead, it wants the ESFlow to be the mainstream electric sportscar of choice, revolutionizing the sportscar market in the same way it hopes the Leaf will revolutionize the family car market.
- It’s Smaller Than a Nissan 350Z : "the weight is less than 1,000 kg (2,200 lbs)."

One more thing. Nissan is unvieling a new "zero emission motorsports concept" on Wednesday (20th).

http://www.hittv.com/NissanNY11evite.html

Nissan press conference --- Nissan will debut a new compact sedan during its press conference to be hosted by Carlos Tavares. In addition, Nissan will reveal a new, zero emission motorsports concept.

 

[TEG]

I know you are hoping it doesn't - but there isn't much difference in terms of material cost between Leaf & ESFlow to make it cost much more than Leaf...

Um dual motors instead of one (which likely means dual inverters too).
Carbon Fiber/Aluminum instead of steel.
I bet that price quote is somewhat optimistic. They claim it wouldn't cost much more than a Leaf, but does seem to have more expensive technology within.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Um dual motors instead of one (which likely means dual inverters too).
Carbon Fiber/Aluminum instead of steel.
I bet that price quote is somewhat optimistic. They claim it wouldn't cost much more than a Leaf, but does seem to have more expensive technology within.

To be fair, those are probably just for the concept and not required in the actual vehicle (they can go with single motors and no carbon fiber and still have similar performance).

The significant additional cost will likely be 50% more batteries (since it targets 150 miles and more batteries would be required anyways for more performance). A power electronics upgrade to handle the additional power, and a motor upgrade (either dual or a higher performance single motor) will probably be required too.

 

[TEG]

If you get rid of the carbon fiber, aluminum then the weight suggestion is probably way off.
If you add more batteries even more weight.
The dual motors was supposed to be an easy way to take existing Leaf tech and make it work in a performance car.
Anyways, it sounds like maybe the specs could be very subject to change. I would bet something among weight, performance, and price is likely to change.
Assuming they even decide to make it.

 

[qwk]

Nissan is losing money on every Leaf sold, but they are going to make a 2200lb car with 35+kwh batteries that does 0-60 in under 5 sec for under $40k?

Any realistic person would be very suspect.

 

[JRP3]

I'm thinking it's going to cost $45-$50K, not be under 5 sec 0-60, and weigh more than 2200lbs. Even so I think it would fill a popular vehicle segment and sell very well at less than half the price of a Roadster. I haven't been this enthusiastic about a car since the Roadster, and though it wouldn't make sense for me to buy one I could actually afford it. I'm sure there are a lot of people with a similar mindset.

 

[qwk]

I'm thinking it's going to cost $45-$50K, not be under 5 sec 0-60, and weigh more than 2200lbs. Even so I think it would fill a popular vehicle segment and sell very well at less than half the price of a Roadster. I haven't been this enthusiastic about a car since the Roadster, and though it wouldn't make sense for me to buy one I could actually afford it. I'm sure there are a lot of people with a similar mindset.

But, then you are in base model S price territory, with possibly better performance, range, much roomier......

I would like to see it built(the more Ev's, the better), but I won't hold my breath.

 

[JRP3]

True but the S is really much larger than I would want, and a sports car isn't really the same market segment as the S. Plus I really love the look of the ESflow. Frankly if the S can come in around $50K for the base model that's a good indication that the ESflow could come in under $45K.

 

[EVNow]

The significant additional cost will likely be 50% more batteries (since it targets 150 miles and more batteries would be required anyways for more performance). A power electronics upgrade to handle the additional power, and a motor upgrade (either dual or a higher performance single motor) will probably be required too.

No. It is supposed to have 24kwh battery that Leaf has but get better mileage because of lighter weight. 150 miles would be LA04, I guess.

 

[JRP3]

And better cdA I'd imagine.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No. It is supposed to have 24kwh battery that Leaf has but get better mileage because of lighter weight. 150 miles would be LA04, I guess.

I find it unlikely it can get 150 miles on LA4. That would peg the Roadster at 330 miles on LA4, but it only got 230 miles on the same cycle (254 miles if you adjust it for the higher 244 mile rating it gets today vs 221 it got before).

Given the 350Z/370Z weighed 3200lbs at its lightest configuration, I find it unlikely they will get it to even the 2700lbs the Roadster weighs (without drastic measures like the carbon fiber chassis they used in the Leaf RC, which would raise the price significantly). And CdA plays minimal role in the LA4 city cycle (it might help in highway though).

Plus from the reports of the Leaf, the 24kWh pack can only output 90kW peak. If they don't increase the capacity, they will have to upgrade the pack to one with a higher discharge rate. Either way the pack will likely cost more money vs a Leaf 24kWh pack.

 

[EVNow]

Plus from the reports of the Leaf, the 24kWh pack can only output 90kW peak.

That is just the rated motor power. Battery's is much higher ...