Leaf -vs- Volt

[AndrewBissell]

You are the one who brought up the 80% "restriction" and the 15% margin of error, resulting in a range of 48 miles range for the Leaf. So people gave an example where Leaf owners drive 70 miles regularly "real world".

My 23000 miles and 2 years of EV driving has been in a Tesla Roadster. I am projecting my experience from the Roadster into the LEAF. IN the Tesla I use Standard mode as much as possible and avoid the upper 15% and lower 10% of the battery as far as possible. This is in line with Tesla guidance. So far this seems to have kept my battery in good state of health.

Given that the LEAF has 80% and 100% charge modes (similar to Standard and Range on the Tesla Roadster) I know I would be conservative and normally charge to 80%. Obviously on days I know in advance that I need more I'd charge to 100%. But every day use for me would likely stop at 80%. Other people may be happy to charge to 100% daily - and they may be fine. If I had a LEAF maybe I would get that confiden too. But prior to purchase for planning purposes I would assume 80% SOC at the start of every day. I think other people might look at it the same way. I know from this thread that plenty wouldn't!

As for the 15% at the bottom end - its a guess. But I know from the Roadster that I don't enjoy driving with "-- Range Uncertain". In the Tesla that happens below ~10-11% SOC. When that happens in the Tesla you've got 20+ miles left. In the LEAF that must surely be less than 10. That's anxious territory for me for two reasons:
- Lesser issue: will I make it to destination/next charger? Less of an issue because like most other commenters here I plan ahead and know how to eke out range by slowing down
- Bigger issue: am I damaging my battery pack? I err that one on the cautious side

But I'll happily change my estimate for the LEAF to assume just 10% at the bottom: it's got an EPA range of 73, with 20% at the top *I* wouldn't make available every day and 10% at the bottom *I'd* be reluctant to use. That gives an effective useable every day * for me * of 51 miles.

If you look only at the EPA numbers the Volt stepped from slightly under half of Leaf range, to slightly over half of Leaf range.

I agree completely, as that is the point I started with.

I suspect the numbers for the 2013 to improve slightly also because it's going to end up using the 5-cycle test this year (rather than 2-cycle * 70%).

That's a good point and I look forward to that and it might change my estimate of useable daily range on a LEAF up a bit. Until then if I were cross-shopping LEAF and Volt I'd assign them 51 and 38 EPA miles daily driving before range extension respectively.

As a confident BEV driver or listening to all of you say you can routinely do 70 I might then apply a multiplier, say 70/51 and get:

Leaf: 70
Volt: 52

That tallies anecdotally with LEAF and Volt owners who claim over-EPA numbers.

However I'd also look hard at their driving patterns: if they are achieving these numbers with Bay Area climate and flat roads, I might not accept the multiple. Living in an area with hills and cold winters I might apply a discount. YMMV.

But I still think the LEAF:Volt ratio will be about 4:3 on the every day AER.

Or when pre-planned driving results in a 100% LEAF charge it's about 7:4.

In saying all this I'm not praising or dissing either car. They both have very good uses. Both are way better than driving pure ICE. And neither yet meets my needs in full.

 

[AndrewBissell]

And the Leaf will counter.

Let the range wars begin!

Good point! We will all win

 

[stopcrazypp]

Given that the LEAF has 80% and 100% charge modes (similar to Standard and Range on the Tesla Roadster) I know I would be conservative and normally charge to 80%. Obviously on days I know in advance that I need more I'd charge to 100%. But every day use for me would likely stop at 80%. Other people may be happy to charge to 100% daily - and they may be fine. If I had a LEAF maybe I would get that confiden too. But prior to purchase for planning purposes I would assume 80% SOC at the start of every day.

The thing is I don't think that's a fair comparison, esp. for the margin in the bottom (which is largely arbitrary). Most Volt owners will not use up their whole EV miles, either. From volt-stats it's about 30 EV miles per day, which is 85%. That doesn't mean they CAN'T use it up when the time comes to use it.

 

[TEG]

FWIW, my biggest 'fear' with the LEAF battery is leaving it at 100% on hot days for long periods of time.
I do charge to 100% sometime but only when it isn't hot outside, and only when I am going to start driving it soon after it gets to 100%.

The VOLT/Ampera let you just drive whenever/however you want and not worry about the battery health.
With the LEAF (and Roadster for that matter) you need a little more knowledge and planning to maximize the capabilities of the vehicle, particularly with regards to tradeoffs of battery usage patterns to favor utility vs longevity.

 

[qwk]

When you compare the range of the leaf the range of the volt, you can't just use the scenario of running the battery down to 0 in the Volt, but not the leaf. That is just silly.

 

[ElSupreme]

When you compare the range of the leaf the range of the volt, you can't just use the scenario of running the battery down to 0 in the Volt, but not the leaf. That is just silly.

I think the thought there is if you run the Volt to 0 you still get to keep driving, where-as the LEAF stops moving. So you need to keep a buffer on both cars. But the buffer in the Volt is a gasoline tank, where the LEAF is mileage left on the battery pack.

In reality you can use more of the Volt's pack because of this dynamic.

 

[qwk]

I think the thought there is if you run the Volt to 0 you still get to keep driving, where-as the LEAF stops moving. So you need to keep a buffer on both cars. But the buffer in the Volt is a gasoline tank, where the LEAF is mileage left on the battery pack.

In reality you can use more of the Volt's pack because of this dynamic.

Yes, but you are still running the battery to 0, causing close to the same battery degredation (the two manufacturers BMS are obviously different).
The equivalent of that in a Leaf would be running it to 0 and then plugging in.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes, but you are still running the battery to 0, causing close to the same battery degredation (the two manufacturers BMS are obviously different).
The equivalent of that in a Leaf would be running it to 0 and then plugging in.

To be fair, the Volt's battery never runs to 0. The genset would kick in before that. It's using 10.8kWh/16.5kWh for the 2013 version (10.3kWh/16kWh in the old one). The Leaf has a built in margin too from "0%" to "100%" (21.5kWh/24kWh), but not as big as the Volt's.

Neither have the Roadster's Range Mode, which really lets you use the entire capacity (56kWh/56kWh).

 

[ElSupreme]

Yes, but you are still running the battery to 0, causing close to the same battery degredation (the two manufacturers BMS are obviously different).
The equivalent of that in a Leaf would be running it to 0 and then plugging in.

Right. I sort of skimmed the first post and missed his battery degradation reasoning. But you still can plan to finish at zero with the Volt, where you need a small buffer with the LEAF.

The assumption is say the longest commute you can make, while still leaving buffer for a blocked road and small detour:

You use 100% of the Volts pack and get to keep going. So you can make your regular commute equal to the Volt's complete battery range.
For the LEAF you would only be able to make your commute 90% of the full battery range, so you can go the extra 5 miles (and extra AC time) if you are forced to detour. Holding back the bottom 10% of the pack (like the Tesla 'Range' mode) could substitute for this.

In real life it doesn't really matter because no one really chooses their commute distance. You just get stuck. You can generally make your commute shorter, or longer but choosing your travel distances is not really doable. That is why I don't have a LEAF. I regularly travel 70miles round trip to work. I work on-site and therefore can't rely on our client providing power for my car. And with my driving habits (and me being unwilling to change them) I can't be sure a LEAF would make it to work and back. Plus it would be so cramped for my doggies, and I wouldn't be able to run errands after work without some planning.

This length commute also would require gas usage from the Volt, and is such that a high MPG vehicle would be similar in TCO. Not to mention my doggies would be worse off in the Volt.

 

[doug]

Yes, but you are still running the [Volt] battery to 0, causing close to the same battery degredation (the two manufacturers BMS are obviously different).
The equivalent of that in a Leaf would be running it to 0 and then plugging in.

No... The Volt battery never really goes to 0% SOC. It always stays in a happy middle region maintained by the generator. Some of this increase in Volt range is due to the GM engineers determining that it's safe to expand that "happy middle region" without much affect on cell life.

 

[qwk]

To be fair, the Volt's battery never runs to 0. The genset would kick in before that. It's using 10.8kWh/16.5kWh for the 2013 version (10.3kWh/16kWh in the old one). The Leaf has a built in margin too from "0%" to "100%" (21.5kWh/24kWh), but not as big as the Volt's.

Neither have the Roadster's Range Mode, which really lets you use the entire capacity (56kWh/56kWh).

You are correct. I just used 0 as the point where the BMS puts the car into limp mode or equivalent, as no li-ion car BMS let's the battery go down anywhere close to 0.

 

[TEG]

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Leaf vs Volt - The Final SHOWDOWN!

 

[daniel]

... owning two cars to do the job of one is not cleaner.

I don't own two cars to do the job of one. I own two cars to do the job of two. With the Roadster I can drive 245 miles (200 to be safe) without using any gasoline. This is something the Volt cannot do. Note that according to my electric utility, my electricity is 100% renewable. Mostly hydro, with a wee bit of wind. The Prius is for road trips, where the Volt's MPG and emissions are abysmal. Trading in a used car for a new one is always a losing proposition financially, and the Prius is 8 1/2 years old. The Roadster replaced the Zap Xebra to give me more range, speed, safety, and fun.

 

[qwk]

I don't own two cars to do the job of one. I own two cars to do the job of two. With the Roadster I can drive 245 miles (200 to be safe) without using any gasoline. This is something the Volt cannot do. Note that according to my electric utility, my electricity is 100% renewable. Mostly hydro, with a wee bit of wind. The Prius is for road trips, where the Volt's MPG and emissions are abysmal. Trading in a used car for a new one is always a losing proposition financially, and the Prius is 8 1/2 years old. The Roadster replaced the Zap Xebra to give me more range, speed, safety, and fun.

I think he was referring to the Leaf owners.

 

[Dave EV]

The Volt vs LEAF range comparison is pretty valid.

GM is very up front in publicly stating that you get 10.3 kWh usable out of 16.0 kWh (10.8/16.5 for 2013).

Contrast to Nissan who will only say that the battery capacity is 24 kWh and has never let any usable data loose, but people have been able to determine that usable is somewhere around 21.5 kWh - 100% charge puts the battery around 94% SOC and starts limiting power at 3% SOC.

As everyone here knows fully cycling the battery like that isn't good for battery life - so charging to "80%" which is actually about 72% full and stopping around the first low battery warning which is around 16% full gives you about 14 kWh usable.

14 kWh usable is good for a bit over 50 miles - which all of a sudden doesn't sound much different than the 35 miles you get in the Volt. Of course - you do have the option of charging to 100% which gets you about 18 kWh usable down to the first low battery warning (16% SOC) or the very low battery warning (8% SOC).

But as mentioned, the lack of an accurate SOC gauge (the "guess-o-meter" tends to be overly optimistic when the battery is full and slightly pessimistic as it nears empty) makes going below the first low battery warning a nervous affair even though when you get it you still have 15% usable capacity left.

For this reason I think we'll see plug-in hybrids become the dominant plug-in for the near term - at least until someone can build an affordable true 100 mile range EV (~30 kWh battery pack) and/or plug-in infrastructure becomes more prevalent.

The LEAF is close, but I'd bet that more range is still close to the #1 feature request customers ask for even if they only regularly use half of it.

 

[JRP3]

14 kWh usable is good for a bit over 50 miles - which all of a sudden doesn't sound much different than the 35 miles you get in the Volt.

45% more EV range doesn't sound much different?

 

[GSP]

45% more EV range doesn't sound much different?

35 mi + gas backup = 35 mi + 15 mi EV backup (+ more EV backup with deeper SOC use)

Sounds about the same to me.

GSP

 

[Dave EV]

45% more EV range doesn't sound much different?

15 miles more EV range doesn't sound that much better when you have a range-extender always waiting just in case. Most people will round the 35 mile Volt EV range to 40 miles and round down the LEAF to 50 miles in their head since they are not afraid to run out of juice in one, but are in the other.

With the LEAF you have to make a conscious decision if you take any trip out of the ordinary to estimate range, decide if you should charge to 100% instead of the usual 80% or seek out charging stations along the way.

IMO (as a LEAF owner now of one year) getting the range up to 80 miles on a 80% charge and 100 miles on 100% will reduce this. But so would having charging infrastructure on every other block like there are gas stations.

The average Joe just doesn't want to have to think about this - and making them do so is a big change. They are used to stopping at a gas station for 10-15 minutes every 250-400 miles and knowing that nearly without fail there's a gas station within a couple miles on the route they are already driving without having to worry if there are a lot of cars already filling up or the stations are out of service.

 

[TEG]

Another reason to avoid 100% LEAF charge, and avoid range mode in the Roadster: keeping your regen.
On the rare time when I charge the LEAF to 100% for a longer trip, I find it annoying that I don't get any regen for a while.
It isn't just the lack of energy recapture, but I have to adjust my mindset for more pedal action on the braking.

After you use up some of that energy, then the regen comes back on, but it frustrating waiting for it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

15 miles more EV range doesn't sound that much better when you have a range-extender always waiting just in case. Most people will round the 35 mile Volt EV range to 40 miles and round down the LEAF to 50 miles in their head since they are not afraid to run out of juice in one, but are in the other.

So you would be okay if they cut the range another 5, 10, or 15 miles (in either car)? Personally, I think every mile counts (people are making a relatively big deal about 3 miles extra range for the Volt). More is always better (besides from cost).

As for all the range fudging, I don't think the 80% charge is a real restriction since 100% charge is always an option with no ambiguity. The Tesla also has a Standard mode that restricts the top end, but I have never seen people use the Standard mode charging as the basis to estimate max range.

The real restriction is how comfortable you are at the lower end (different for every driver), so it'll be some sizable portion of the 21.5kWh usable.