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Learn from my mistakes... lookback at my botched installation (NorCal PG&E Territory)

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
8,789
9,745
Riverside Co. CA
Another update...

PG&E set someone in one of their blue trucks to my house so they could confirm the system was indeed installed as described in the line diagram provided in the NEM2-MT interconnection agreement. This line diagram also matches what the county inspected and approved back in December on the latest permit.

I think (because I can't get straight answers from anyone) is that almost 90 days have passed since the County inspected, they want to make sure I haven't done something to upgrade the system between the inspection and granting PTO. Of course the only reason it's been 90 days since inspection without PTO is because PG&E is super slowwwwwwww.

Anyway; just a heads up to anyone... don't monkey with your system between inspection and PTO since there very well could be a final-final look-over from PG&E.

I get the feeling you specifically are on some list / spreadsheet at PGE and they are like "mwahahaha.... lets keep @!$$%[email protected]#$ with Mr. @holeydonut ..... I know we never send anyone for inspection right before PTO but for THIS guy? Roll the truck!!!!":cool:

Lol.. you are almost there it sounds like.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
I have my installer coming today to take pictures of my system for the loan company. She told me we need a final from county. Then that info gets sent to PGE for approval. Then PTO. What if the world could/would someone modify in the system?


Add more solar and batteries? 🔋
Remove some blade disconnects? ⚡
Change the fancy site placard? 🪧
Move my gas riser closer to the explosion-prone MSP? 💣
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,437
418
auburn, ca
I just talked with some installer folks. They took pictures for the loan folks. They said after the county does a final, they send to PGE and have never
seen them come out an do a site inspection. You have to be so special. :)
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
I just talked with some installer folks. They took pictures for the loan folks. They said after the county does a final, they send to PGE and have never
seen them come out an do a site inspection. You have to be so special. :)


Yeah, but I also don't think this is just a "me" thing. I just spoke with that electrician that is installing my HPWC and he relayed what he's heard around large-scale ESS installs. Under NEM2-MT, PG&E is going around asking people to put in a revenue grade meter (NGOM?) on the PV side to prove the solar production is equal or greater than what PG&E sees on their end as exported energy from the home during the NEM cycle.

PG&E is aware that Powerwalls are capable of being set up as export devices when people log in as an installer and monkey around. So I think PG&E is assuming the worst now; that ESS customers are all shady bastards ready to game the TOU rates using their ESS. This isn't about going green anymore; it's about protecting their profits.

If only PG&E had this own mentality with their "safety" experts... maybe those 84 people wouldn't have died from the fires.
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,437
418
auburn, ca
Yeah, but I also don't think this is just a "me" thing. I just spoke with that electrician that is installing my HPWC and he relayed what he's heard around large-scale ESS installs. Under NEM2-MT, PG&E is going around asking people to put in a revenue grade meter (NGOM?) on the PV side to prove the solar production is equal or greater than what PG&E sees on their end as exported energy from the home during the NEM cycle.

PG&E is aware that Powerwalls are capable of being set up as export devices when people log in as an installer and monkey around. So I think PG&E is assuming the worst now; that ESS customers are all shady bastards ready to game the TOU rates using their ESS. This isn't about going green anymore; it's about protecting their profits.

If only PG&E had this own mentality with their "safety" experts... maybe those 84 people wouldn't have died from the fires.
PW's can be set as an export device in the installer menu? Got more info since I have never heard of this.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
PW's can be set as an export device in the installer menu? Got more info since I have never heard of this.

I dunno... I've never seen the setting but I guess PG&E thinks it's easy?

Every time I start monkeying with the Powerwalls my wife gets pissed... so I haven't really done anything with them lately.

What sucks is PG&E is now done with Phase 3 of 4 on their large-scale SGIP. There's only $20mm left and I could miss my cutoff to get my goddamn money. I hate how PG&E is fully capable of screwing homeowners out of thousands of dollars by road-blocking them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,437
418
auburn, ca
I dunno... I've never seen the setting but I guess PG&E thinks it's easy?

Every time I start monkeying with the Powerwalls my wife gets pissed... so I haven't really done anything with them lately.

What sucks is PG&E is now done with Phase 3 of 4 on their large-scale SGIP. There's only $20mm left and I could miss my cutoff to get my goddamn money. I hate how PG&E is fully capable of screwing homeowners out of thousands of dollars by road-blocking them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
Maybe someone else has experience about exporting? I guess I have read maybe some places do have exporting to help their grid needs. But how they do it I have no idea. Have never heard anyone that has done it by changing something in the configuration of a PW. I guess anything is possible. Since I have 5 batteries, even though on 2 subpanels. I guess I would be considered large. Shall be interesting to see what happens with my process towards PTO.
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,814
8,829
138397.jpg

I dunno... I've never seen the setting but I guess PG&E thinks it's easy?

Every time I start monkeying with the Powerwalls my wife gets pissed... so I haven't really done anything with them lately.

What sucks is PG&E is now done with Phase 3 of 4 on their large-scale SGIP. There's only $20mm left and I could miss my cutoff to get my goddamn money. I hate how PG&E is fully capable of screwing homeowners out of thousands of dollars by road-blocking them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

Shouldn't your Avatar be the switch in the down position? Maybe PG&E is on your case because they see your avatar and assume you turned it on already ! 😝
 

MJ_CA_2019

Member
Aug 19, 2020
136
34
Central CA
What sucks is PG&E is now done with Phase 3 of 4 on their large-scale SGIP. There's only $20mm left and I could miss my cutoff to get my goddamn money.
Mine still appears to be based on the step that was open at the time I applied (Step 2 - Dec 2019) even though it took 15 months between submission and reservation letter. So perhaps there is still hope...
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
Check out this article about how some people are getting annihilated with outrageous energy bills.

PG&E always wants the homeowner to feel at fault... but then PG&E absolutely craps on people like me that try to do something about it.

Absolute jerks and tossers over there... I don’t know why anyone advocates for that group of murderers and liars at PG&E.

New PG&E rate plan takes effect soon in Sonoma

“My bill jumped all the way up to $249 last month. It averages $91 to $110 usually,” said Margaret, 75, who asked that the Index-Tribune withhold her last name for privacy reasons.

Margaret tracks her energy consumption every single day at PGE.com, and she’s made a serious effort to limit her use. “I unplug everything, only wash in cold water, and stopped using my dishwasher completely. I got a big lantern, like we had during the outages, and I use that when I go into the garage or the bathroom.”

But Margaret’s hearing loss requires use of a caption machine for the telephone, and disabling it at the end of each day is a hardship. “It’s a lot of trouble if you pull that plug out of the wall every day. The machine has to reset,” she said.

Like many people, Margaret spends her evenings at home, watching TV and completing household tasks. She fears the time-of-use billing plan will raise costs. “I tried washing clothes at 10 o’clock, but who wants to be folding clothes at 2 in the morning? I’m a single woman living in a 1,000-square-foot condo who doesn’t cook. But what about a family in a house with two or three kids?” Margaret said.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,437
418
auburn, ca
Check out this article about how some people are getting annihilated with outrageous energy bills.

PG&E always wants the homeowner to feel at fault... but then PG&E absolutely craps on people like me that try to do something about it.

Absolute jerks and tossers over there... I don’t know why anyone advocates for that group of murderers and liars at PG&E.

New PG&E rate plan takes effect soon in Sonoma
I do not see an issue. Folks can choose. And when I read about the folks who had their bill go up, well guess what, yep, we have had a warm winter so use was down. Then it got cold, and I sure saw my use go up. So if someone leaves there house lets say at 70, what do you think is going to happen. So again,
how it is PGE's fault that folks just use and then basically expect to get it for free?
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
I do not see an issue. Folks can choose. And when I read about the folks who had their bill go up, well guess what, yep, we have had a warm winter so use was down. Then it got cold, and I sure saw my use go up. So if someone leaves there house lets say at 70, what do you think is going to happen. So again,
how it is PGE's fault that folks just use and then basically expect to get it for free?

I never implied energy should be free. I believe people's access to energy should be in such a manner as to allow that person to live a reasonable life. Last I checked, we're in a first world country. But which other state in the USA, country in the EU, or developed Southeast Asian country encourages people to unplug all their appliances; take a piss with a lantern, avoid using QoL appliances, and line dry their clothes? Only in California is this idiotic behavior messaged as "normal" and the people being serviced by the utilities guilt their neighbors into shaping up.

I used 769 kWh in Feb 11 to Mar 11 2020. My electricity bill was $214 (I have gas furnaces and water heater). And PG&E STILL SENT ME the stupid nastygram about how my energy use was in the worst 1% of my area and I need to shape up. 769 kWh is well below the national average. The only reason the bill was so high is because California charges energy rates 2x to 3x the national average.

So why wouldn't I get solar and ESS? I refuse to believe sitting in the dark from 6pm to midnight is normal behavior and is simply unacceptable.

Sure, maybe this 75 year old lady has something wrong in her condo that is just sucking power (or maybe a neighbor is leeching it). But I don't see PG&E helping her find the culprit. I just see them hitting her with propaganda and platitudes about not using energy during peak time.

So, screw PG&E... They want homeowners to blame one another for abusing their access to power. But this is manipulative and simply a form of abuse enabled by a corrupt CPUC. The utilities use the "going green" card to guilt people into using less energy. But if the homeowner wants to go green, they absolutely CRAP on those efforts because it erodes the utilities' profits. And if the homeowner has a genuine concern about their bill without the means to buy PV and ESS, PG&E goes silent because they don't actually know how to help; they only know how to gaslight with guilt.
 
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Electrph

Member
Aug 29, 2019
390
232
Central California
I do not see an issue. Folks can choose. And when I read about the folks who had their bill go up, well guess what, yep, we have had a warm winter so use was down. Then it got cold, and I sure saw my use go up. So if someone leaves there house lets say at 70, what do you think is going to happen. So again,
how it is PGE's fault that folks just use and then basically expect to get it for free?
i think what annoys ppl most (or a least from what i see from outside looking in .. i'm on SCE) is the hypocrisy of PG&E .. spending in inordinate amount of time and money guilting people about what a reasonable person would believe is normal use but then making it difficult both financially and time wise for same people to decrease electric use thru solar etc
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,437
418
auburn, ca
It is tough on folks with limited means and limited capital.

I never implied energy should be free. I believe people's access to energy should be in such a manner as to allow that person to live a reasonable life. Last I checked, we're in a first world country. But which other state in the USA, country in the EU, or developed Southeast Asian country encourages people to unplug all their appliances; take a piss with a lantern, avoid using QoL appliances, and line dry their clothes? Only in California is this idiotic behavior messaged as "normal" and the people being serviced by the utilities guilt their neighbors into shaping up.

I used 769 kWh in Feb 11 to Mar 11 2020. My electricity bill was $214 (I have gas furnaces and water heater). And PG&E STILL SENT ME the stupid nastygram about how my energy use was in the worst 1% of my area and I need to shape up. 769 kWh is well below the national average. The only reason the bill was so high is because California charges energy rates 2x to 3x the national average.

So why wouldn't I get solar and ESS? I refuse to believe sitting in the dark from 6pm to midnight is normal behavior and is simply unacceptable.

Sure, maybe this 75 year old lady has something wrong in her condo that is just sucking power (or maybe a neighbor is leeching it). But I don't see PG&E helping her find the culprit. I just see them hitting her with propaganda and platitudes about not using energy during peak time.

So, screw PG&E... They want homeowners to blame one another for abusing their access to power. But this is manipulative and simply a form of abuse enabled by a corrupt CPUC. The utilities use the "going green" card to guilt people into using less energy. But if the homeowner wants to go green, they absolutely CRAP on those efforts because it erodes the utilities' profits. And if the homeowner has a genuine concern about their bill without the means to buy PV and ESS, PG&E goes silent because they don't actually know how to help; they only know how to gaslight with guilt.
So it always someones fault? How about her kids helping, or a church or or or. Why is it always seem to be the blame game. I am responsible for me, not always blaming government or a corporation. I guess we just have different feelings
 

Electrph

Member
Aug 29, 2019
390
232
Central California
Check out this article about how some people are getting annihilated with outrageous energy bills.

PG&E always wants the homeowner to feel at fault... but then PG&E absolutely craps on people like me that try to do something about it.

Absolute jerks and tossers over there... I don’t know why anyone advocates for that group of murderers and liars at PG&E.

New PG&E rate plan takes effect soon in Sonoma
i just like this post for the proper use of tossers :D
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
So it always someones fault? How about her kids helping, or a church or or or. Why is it always seem to be the blame game. I am responsible for me, not always blaming government or a corporation. I guess we just have different feelings


I don't think she needs help. If her bill is $200 or so in the PG&E territory, her monthly usage would be in the 700s kWh. Assuming her heat is electric (which is often the case for condos), I think 700 kWh is where it would be for someone who is sheltering in place.

If she lived in any state but California (or Texas during an energy crisis), she would be paying $90 per month on energy and probably watching Jeopardy before doing some chores and taking a piss with her light on.

There shouldn't even be an expectation for her kids, a church, or some 509(a)(3), to step in and "help" her do anything. She should just have reasonable access to power and live in retirement comfortably. Because she's a citizen of one of the most powerful countries in the world, and resides in a state that has more tax dollars than many countries.

But PG&E wants you to think she's a problem user, lazy, incompetent, senile, dumb, etc. Because that deflects from the real problem of mismanaged energy IOU's. PG&E wants you to have the mentality you have of placing the blame on people who really aren't using that much energy. PG&E could easily incentivize some home energy monitoring system instead of airing ads showing people catching solar energy in jars. But then they'd be accepting responsibility instead of pushing propaganda to get voters like you on board to their corrupt business model. So now you think other homeowners are lazy/un-deserving of assistance from a problem that literally wouldn't exist if PG&E were well run.

I do agree with the conservative fiscal policy where if she had 2 pool pumps, a grow house, and liked to run radiant flooring at 80F... then screw that person if their energy bill is too high. Their kids can help pay for that.
 
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SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
9,055
9,777
SF Bay Area
We're in Santa Clara County and got a PG&E letter about the Time of Use just the other day.

As for "Margaret" I have to wonder if she has single pane windows and an old energy hog TV that's on all day long. Does she have energy efficient appliances like her refrig/freezer and dryer? A lot of older apartments/condos don't have great insulation.
 
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holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,495
873
East Bay NorCal
We're in Santa Clara County and got a PG&E letter about the Time of Use just the other day.

As for "Margaret" I have to wonder if she has single pane windows and an old energy hog TV that's on all day long. Does she have energy efficient appliances like her refrig/freezer and dryer? A lot of older apartments/condos don't have great insulation.


I've probably spent too much time in corporate; but are there state or federal grants for programs to help disadvantaged classes of homeowners investigate/learn where their energy is going so they can make smarter decisions? PG&E has the CARES and FERA programs to give low income folks cheap rates (hence why the blended rate across California isn't so bad). But these programs don't actually help someone learn what is happening in their home. It just gets the homeowner the blah propaganda around lowering the brightness of a TV to save power or to jump in a pool.

Back in 2011 or so, Energy Upgrade California was actually pushed by the PUC as a effort to help homeowners improve the efficiency and comfort of their homes. They'd help with discounted HERS tests, do energy audits, provide incentives for upgrades etc. But because it was implemented as a "pull" approach (educate contractors to trickle down benefits to homeowners) it was fairly ineffective at helping low income or seniors. It basically became a way for wealthy folks to get discount on huge home improvement projects.


Now Energy Upgrade California is just the sounding board for the CPUC to tell people to reduce using energy from 4pm to 9pm. So much for helping people understand how to make real, beneficial changes to their homes.

But, I feel like the spirit of what they the project was trying to accomplish in 2011 was noble. I wonder if there are still programs someone like "Margaret" can reach out to in order to get some help to figure things out. I guess we can invite her to post on TMC, but that doesn't seem like a scalable/structured approach.

I can attest the stupid nasty grams from PG&E don't actually help you figure out what is "wrong". Because PG&E makes it seem like your house is the problem the whole time, so you'll feel like you suck. Of course it's your fault for not having the perfect brand new home. But if you compare your energy use to the national average. you'll end up well below national EIA targets. And it turns out PG&E just loves to screw with people this way.
 
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