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Learn from my mistakes... lookback at my botched installation (NorCal PG&E Territory)

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AAAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH YYAAASSSSSSSSS

SGIP check is in hand. And no PG&E person drove to my house today (whoohhooo).

My piddley PV+ESS system ... 7.0 kWp AC, 3x Powerwalls, new 200 A MSP, some cool stand-off racking, and lots of disconnects is finallllyyyyyy oveerrrrrrrrr. Damn this feels gooooood.

Man they don't make this stuff easy. I still can't believe this project landed on my original budget. Like, I guess if you count my time I'm at a huge deficit. But the net out of cost of everything after whatever offsets came in at $29,565 (the $65 was for some cool new placards). This is going to be worth every penny now that my upstairs AC is set to 73F and it's peak time. And my dinner will be nicely cooked and some nice baked bread. And I'm going to run my dishwasher at 7:30pm. Yaaasssssss

Hi, thank you for sharing your story and journey! I was researching Large-Scale Storage SGIP and noticed on PG&E's site that:
"To receive Large-Scale General Market incentives: the customer is either Commercial, Government, or Non-Profit"


Is that true? There seems to be so little resources/knowledge among installers on SGIP and every area seems different (I'm in So CA). They don't even state Large-Scale for SCE and the pdf talks about needing multiple conditions to even qualify.
 
Hi, thank you for sharing your story and journey! I was researching Large-Scale Storage SGIP and noticed on PG&E's site that:
"To receive Large-Scale General Market incentives: the customer is either Commercial, Government, or Non-Profit"


Is that true? There seems to be so little resources/knowledge among installers on SGIP and every area seems different (I'm in So CA). They don't even state Large-Scale for SCE and the pdf talks about needing multiple conditions to even qualify.

Whoa you’re right, the residential large scale SGIP is over in the PG&E and SCE areas. Resiliency (for regular income) is also fully subscribed.

A few months ago the SGIP folks shifted a ton of money into the equity resiliency bucket. The SGIP was supposed to be a way to proliferate energy storage throughout the state, but the operators felt it was mostly wealthy people with fancy homes, high end homes, etc that were claiming the credits. So they transferred funds for low income folks.

I think you’ve basically missed the opportunity to get a residential SGIP now unless you’re low income. There was a SGIP webinar on June 18… maybe you can ask them for the slides to see if they discussed changes to the large scale SGIP.
 
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I wish PG&E were as chill about the 36" rule for me... they literally set my project back 2 months to bicker over if a Solar Ready MSP was considered 'generation equipment' in the PG&E Greenbook definitions.

BTW, as part of me researching solutions to the 36" malarkey... I got a quote to see what it would take to cap off my gas service and remove the riser. That part is actually owned by PG&E since it comes before the gas meter. It's a minimum $2,000 of engineering fees plus some other costs that would be TBD.
Saw a bunch of threads with your experience re: the 36"...not sure i found all or got to the latest, so a little TL;DR, hoping i could just ask you and go straight to the source...but did PG&E offer the "slam-shut" valve on your riser, which my understanding drops the radius down to 12" instead of 36"?

Or maybe that wasnt available back for your install...i did hear it's kinda new. And they dont want to volunteer these...but had some neighbors with an older house where the gas meter is literally right under a window, slam-shut valve got them solved.
 
Saw a bunch of threads with your experience re: the 36"...not sure i found all or got to the latest, so a little TL;DR, hoping i could just ask you and go straight to the source...but did PG&E offer the "slam-shut" valve on your riser, which my understanding drops the radius down to 12" instead of 36"?

Or maybe that wasnt available back for your install...i did hear it's kinda new. And they dont want to volunteer these...but had some neighbors with an older house where the gas meter is literally right under a window, slam-shut valve got them solved.


Wow you actually know someone that got a slam shut off vale installed underground before the gas riser? I tried to get PG&E to do it for me, and the PG&E gas department told me it was not possible period for a residential purpose. The stuff between the meter (which is unfortunately above ground) and the PG&E line underground is their property, and they wouldn't add the slam shutoff.
 
I actually don’t know the sequencer of their install, just that they had it…and it was (is) really close under a window.

I did not have one…but he offered to swing by later in the day after shift calls, and installed one on mine, and gave my an install report that indicates “can install within 12” of valve”. Who knows if this will work.

I’m deep in design iterations on Tesla 10.8kW PV + 3xESS, and just now reading up on BackupSwitch vs Backup Gateway 2.

Right now they have me on BGW2…but full outside install. Trying to get the ESS inside…so I guess BGW2 would be there (so the 12” is a moot benefit for me). The inside garage ESS in San Jose is it’s own complicated story, but much better then Santa Clara county it seems.

Whatever came of the backup switch? Did those become more common?
 
Wow you actually know someone that got a slam shut off vale installed underground before the gas riser? I tried to get PG&E to do it for me, and the PG&E gas department told me it was not possible period for a residential purpose. The stuff between the meter (which is unfortunately above ground) and the PG&E line underground is their property, and they wouldn't add the slam shutoff.
Sorry, not underground. Above ground. But there was 12” to the lower window sill…meter is literally right under window.
 
I actually don’t know the sequencer of their install, just that they had it…and it was (is) really close under a window.

I did not have one…but he offered to swing by later in the day after shift calls, and installed one on mine, and gave my an install report that indicates “can install within 12” of valve”. Who knows if this will work.

I’m deep in design iterations on Tesla 10.8kW PV + 3xESS, and just now reading up on BackupSwitch vs Backup Gateway 2.

Right now they have me on BGW2…but full outside install. Trying to get the ESS inside…so I guess BGW2 would be there (so the 12” is a moot benefit for me). The inside garage ESS in San Jose is it’s own complicated story, but much better then Santa Clara county it seems.

Whatever came of the backup switch? Did those become more common?


Ok, in my research about all this, I came to the realization that common terms aren't actually that common.

For example, this is a vent regulator or service regulator.

1661664316320.png


There are some people on TMC that have had the regulator relocated (the riser remains where it is) and that actually helps resolve some issues. PG&E will do this if there's a need and the gas folks seem kind of willing to work with the electrical folks to figure out the best solution for a greenbook issue.

1661664242327.png


What's confusing is that PG&E will sometimes call that vent regulator a shutoff. But if you call it a slam shut off, it will confuse them.

Because this is a slam shut off; and it's installed before the regulator. PG&E actually said if you get one of these installed the 36" rule may not need to apply since technically the riser will never be at risk of big monsterous explosion since a leak would slam things shut underground. But then PG&E won't install this so wtf... I don't understand how your neighbor got one?

1661664488235.png


I must have heard "do you mean the earthquake shutoff value sir??? do you know what you are talking about sir???" like a dozen times (the thing in red).
1661664708670.png


I was getting so irate... but this is understandable since apparently people just make up terms and over-complicate everything for the hell of it. But getting someone to actually do anything is impossible.
 
Ok, in my research about all this, I came to the realization that common terms aren't actually that common.

For example, this is a vent regulator or service regulator.

View attachment 846087

There are some people on TMC that have had the regulator relocated (the riser remains where it is) and that actually helps resolve some issues. PG&E will do this if there's a need and the gas folks seem kind of willing to work with the electrical folks to figure out the best solution for a greenbook issue.

View attachment 846086

What's confusing is that PG&E will sometimes call that vent regulator a shutoff. But if you call it a slam shut off, it will confuse them.

Because this is a slam shut off; and it's installed before the regulator. PG&E actually said if you get one of these installed the 36" rule may not need to apply since technically the riser will never be at risk of big monsterous explosion since a leak would slam things shut underground. But then PG&E won't install this so wtf... I don't understand how your neighbor got one?

View attachment 846088

I must have heard "do you mean the earthquake shutoff value sir??? do you know what you are talking about sir???" like a dozen times (the thing in red).
View attachment 846089

I was getting so irate... but this is understandable since apparently people just make up terms and over-complicate everything for the hell of it. But getting someone to actually do anything is impossible.

Earthquake shutoff never came up in our discussion. I had a vent regulator prior, standard issue…that got fully removed and then the slam-shut was placed on the riser (above ground) but on the PGE side before the meeter. He indicated in any adverse event (over pressure or under pressure) it will “slam shut” and require a reset.

He did mention more are being installed in these areas.

But yeah, i just got him on a slow Sat AM with few jobs. Generally curious about this stuff, so just went up and started asking some questions, and a few hours later he rolled by and did it. He’s got good karma for sure.
 
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Earthquake shutoff never came up in our discussion. I had a vent regulator prior, standard issue…that got fully removed and then the slam-shut was placed on the riser (above ground) but on the PGE side before the meeter. He indicated in any adverse event (over pressure or under pressure) it will “slam shut” and require a reset.

He did mention more are being installed in these areas.

But yeah, i just got him on a slow Sat AM with few jobs. Generally curious about this stuff, so just went up and started asking some questions, and a few hours later he rolled by and did it. He’s got good karma for sure.


Whoa how did you find this guy?

I wonder if this can completely negate the earthquake shutoff and 36” rule…
 
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Whoa how did you find this guy?

I wonder if this can completely negate the earthquake shutoff and 36” rule…
Just luck of the draw and inquisitive about PGE stuff...and rep was very nice & professional. As i said, good karma coming his way.

Below is the service note.

I'm diving deep into some other threads on people going to 400A (considering due to wanting 2x chargers + ADU + other electrical stuff)...looks complicated because then you have to go to gateway, and then 200A likely backed up + 200A not backed up...which isnt really an issue other then wall space and crazy cost.

1661669599822.png
 
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I have never heard of one of these installed but have asked and we were told no its not an option for a contractor.

PGE has recently relaxed their green book requirements on the gas meter location relative to the service panel. See the 2022-20323 greenbook.

Now a conduit can be connected to an existing service panel as long as the connection to the panel is outside the 12" exclusion zone from the metal of the meter and 36" radius from the gas meter.

However also like for like service panel swaps within the exclusion zone are no longer allowed! THis is a huge downside really but at least there is some upside.

The old rules about 36" wide on each side of the meter and 6' or 10' high clear of conduit were overly restrictive.
 
Lol I had to look up the Greenbook to see for myself... I pasted the picture from the latest Greenbook below. PG&E has somehow made this better and more complicated. Getting licensed to do electrical work is more reading than passing the Bar Exam...

The main change to this whole safe zone is the new 36 inch radiused circle around the gas regulator vent opening for the no-go zone (instead of 36" square). Assuming your meter main / combo thing was mounted high up enough, this means you could get within 12" left or right of that regular vent or the gas meter itself. Yayyyyyy.

I also like the new language that clearly states a Main Service Panel upgrade qualifies for like for like whether the upgrade is being done for solar or just because you're bored. As long as you stay under 400A it seems to be grandfathered in! Gone is the baloney interpretation that a main service panel is "new generating equipment" and exempt from like for like. Yayyyyyy.

The riser still acts as the 36" measured square no-go-area for new devices. So you can't cram a new Powerwall or Inverter really close to the gas equipment. I wonder what PG&E has to say about Tesla's integrated smart meter combo socket thing?


************************************************************


E. Panel Replacements and Conduit Connections to Existing Electric Panels, 400 Amps and Less, within the Gas Clearance Area

Electric panel upgrades, “like-for-like” panel replacements, and new electric conduit connections to existing electric meter panels may be allowed for an existing electric meter panel that resides within the gas clearance area as shown in Figure 2-19, “Electric and Gas Meter Set Separation Dimensions and Clearances, on Page 2-33, if all the following requirements are met:

1. The electric panel and electric conduit and equipment must not
reside within the 36-inch radius from the gas regulator vent
opening.

2. The electric panel must not reside within 12 inches on either side of
PG&E gas facilities and 10 feet above the regulator vent opening as
shown in Figure 2-22, “Clearance Requirements for an Existing
Electric Meter/Panel,” on Page 2-38. If any portion of the existing
electric panel resides within this area, the electric panel must be
relocated outside all clearance areas shown in Figure 2-22 before
the panel is replaced and any conduit connection is made.

3. Additional electric equipment/devices must not be installed within
the clearance areas shown in Figure 2-22.
Exception: A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or
joints can run completely through and terminate/connect outside of
the 36−inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening.

4. All minimum clear and level working space requirements for the
electric meter panel and gas meter set must be met.


1661746780585.png
 
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Lol I had to look up the Greenbook to see for myself... I pasted the picture from the latest Greenbook below. PG&E has somehow made this better and more complicated. Getting licensed to do electrical work is more reading than passing the Bar Exam...

The main change to this whole safe zone is the new 36 inch radiused circle around the gas regulator vent opening for the no-go zone (instead of 36" square). Assuming your meter main / combo thing was mounted high up enough, this means you could get within 12" left or right of that regular vent or the gas meter itself. Yayyyyyy.

I also like the new language that clearly states a Main Service Panel upgrade qualifies for like for like whether the upgrade is being done for solar or just because you're bored. As long as you stay under 400A it seems to be grandfathered in! Gone is the baloney interpretation that a main service panel is "new generating equipment" and exempt from like for like. Yayyyyyy.

The riser still acts as the 36" measured square no-go-area for new devices. So you can't cram a new Powerwall or Inverter really close to the gas equipment. I wonder what PG&E has to say about Tesla's integrated smart meter combo socket thing?


************************************************************


E. Panel Replacements and Conduit Connections to Existing Electric Panels, 400 Amps and Less, within the Gas Clearance Area

Electric panel upgrades, “like-for-like” panel replacements, and new electric conduit connections to existing electric meter panels may be allowed for an existing electric meter panel that resides within the gas clearance area as shown in Figure 2-19, “Electric and Gas Meter Set Separation Dimensions and Clearances, on Page 2-33, if all the following requirements are met:

1. The electric panel and electric conduit and equipment must not
reside within the 36-inch radius from the gas regulator vent
opening.

2. The electric panel must not reside within 12 inches on either side of
PG&E gas facilities and 10 feet above the regulator vent opening as
shown in Figure 2-22, “Clearance Requirements for an Existing
Electric Meter/Panel,” on Page 2-38. If any portion of the existing
electric panel resides within this area, the electric panel must be
relocated outside all clearance areas shown in Figure 2-22 before
the panel is replaced and any conduit connection is made.

3. Additional electric equipment/devices must not be installed within
the clearance areas shown in Figure 2-22.
Exception: A continuous metallic conduit with no couplings or
joints can run completely through and terminate/connect outside of
the 36−inch radial clearance from the gas regulator vent opening.

4. All minimum clear and level working space requirements for the
electric meter panel and gas meter set must be met.


View attachment 846524
Thanks for posting that, I just didn't have the time to dig into the explanation. Your explanation was pretty accurate, but I would call the no-go zone a sphere not a square. It is much easier to cross near the gas meter area now as well.

Of course, PGE giveth and taketh in equal measure. Not only did they eliminate the like for like swaps within the exclusion zone they changed the rules around AC disconnects.

More Disconnects and equipment will be needed going forward, since no longer can the PGE required disconnect turn of customer loads or be in a sensible location between the TEG and the Service panel. This also means that no longer can a customer run their home in backup mode if PGE turns off the generation AC disconnect.

I honestly think this rule will not pass muster as soon as someone wants to sue PGE over it. We are waiting for them to start a fight over it with one of our really rich customers, and then they can turn the lawyers loose so we are not caught in the middle.
 
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Thanks for posting that, I just didn't have the time to dig into the explanation. Your explanation was pretty accurate, but I would call the no-go zone a sphere not a square. It is much easier to cross near the gas meter area now as well.

Of course, PGE giveth and taketh in equal measure. Not only did they eliminate the like for like swaps within the exclusion zone they changed the rules around AC disconnects.

More Disconnects and equipment will be needed going forward, since no longer can the PGE required disconnect turn of customer loads or be in a sensible location between the TEG and the Service panel. This also means that no longer can a customer run their home in backup mode if PGE turns off the generation AC disconnect.

I honestly think this rule will not pass muster as soon as someone wants to sue PGE over it. We are waiting for them to start a fight over it with one of our really rich customers, and then they can turn the lawyers loose so we are not caught in the middle.



Moar Disconnects??? How is this possible? And how could PG&E be allowed to disable the generation AC disconnect? Isn't PG&E only allowed to disconnect power at the meter socket or possibly the disconnect required here?


IIRC you said PG&E didn't really enforce the above requirement on most residential customers (ones not named Holeydonut). Have they changed their tune and are now requiring this for everybody?

There is no way your future customers will have more disconnects than what PG&E and the County told me I needed.
1. I have 3 separate disconnects that prevent utility energy from reaching my TEG2. Pulling the meter out of its socket is actually a fourth way. Someone going to the PG&E cover in my front lawn and disconnecting my service with that long tool of theirs at the street is a fifth way.

2. Then I have 3 separate ways someone can disconnect my PV from reaching the TEG2; each of the disconnects is "for safety".

3. Each ESS has 2 ways (so that's 6 total disconnects for 3x Powerwalls) to be disconnected from reaching my TEG2.
 
Here is the new version, see Item #2. In many cases of larger jobs, this will require discrete PV and ESS generation panels and disconnect(s)
Basically now when PGE wants to turn off your PV/ESS, they also turn off your backup system from your use.

I can't say how much they will enforce this, but it will start some issues if they try to change the enforcement of this issue.
 
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Here is the new version, see Item #2. In many cases of larger jobs, this will require discrete PV and ESS generation panels and disconnect(s)


Wow... they actually updated that 060559 doc with a Revision 6? And here I was stuck on Revision 3. PG&E must have saw your post about how the old version wasn't much of an issue and took it personally :p

Double-Wow, generation source disconnects have to be "line of sight" from the effing meter socket? So if your Powerwalls are indoors, you gotta run your generation disconnect outdoors so PG&E can easily see them? But then these wouldn't be "line of sight" from the actual Powerwalls themselves for NEC purposes. So maybe you need disconnects indoors and outdoors by the meter?

Do you think they're really going to enforce this more strictly now? Like you can't just write your letter and get them to wave you on by since your systems typically aren't transformer rated?

I still can't believe PG&E keeps on beating their "Molded case circuit breakers, pull-out type disconnects, or any other similar device are not acceptable as an approved disconnect switch." If it's good enough for the NEC it should be good enough for PG&E.
 
Yeah, item #2 is bogus. But 240V services up to CL320 are still exempt, so residentially this should only apply to 600A and above services.

Cheers, Wayne

Well Technically it says "may be exempted from installing a disconnect switch, as determined by PG&E" ...

PG&E told me to take my big disconnect and shove it up my rear. Even though I have a CL200 meter and only have 200A at my house. PG&E told me they don't have to grant any exception. And since PG&E thinks my solar solar and ESS hurt their pension, they wanted to make sure my system adhered to every Greenbook rule to the letter.

1661798490679.png