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Learn from my mistakes... lookback at my botched installation (NorCal PG&E Territory)

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Thanks for posting that, I just didn't have the time to dig into the explanation. Your explanation was pretty accurate, but I would call the no-go zone a sphere not a square. It is much easier to cross near the gas meter area now as well.

Of course, PGE giveth and taketh in equal measure. Not only did they eliminate the like for like swaps within the exclusion zone they changed the rules around AC disconnects.

More Disconnects and equipment will be needed going forward, since no longer can the PGE required disconnect turn of customer loads or be in a sensible location between the TEG and the Service panel. This also means that no longer can a customer run their home in backup mode if PGE turns off the generation AC disconnect.

I honestly think this rule will not pass muster as soon as someone wants to sue PGE over it. We are waiting for them to start a fight over it with one of our really rich customers, and then they can turn the lawyers loose so we are not caught in the middle.


I feel like since main service panels are typically chest-high and the gas regulator is down near the ankles, it'd be tough for an existing MSP to be within that 36" radius. Hopefully you aren't seeing instances where things would have been like-for-like in the old rules but suddenly you're stuck with a lift and shift now.

The whole thing about PG&E requiring disconnects to turn off generation and backup sources is such BS. I agree with you that seems like an overreach on their part. I can't imagine PG&E having any normal/good explanation for having to be able to turn off someone's backup ESS.
 
I feel like since main service panels are typically chest-high and the gas regulator is down near the ankles, it'd be tough for an existing MSP to be within that 36" radius. Hopefully you aren't seeing instances where things would have been like-for-like in the old rules but suddenly you're stuck with a lift and shift now.

The whole thing about PG&E requiring disconnects to turn off generation and backup sources is such BS. I agree with you that seems like an overreach on their part. I can't imagine PG&E having any normal/good explanation for having to be able to turn off someone's backup ESS.
Re-read the requirements.

If your existing MSP is within 12" of the metal up to 10' high, you cannot do anything to connect to it on the exterior wall including a new like for like swap.

All the 36" radius does for you is allow an unbroken conduit to cross the exclusion area, and stay 36" radius from the gas meter. No new equipment or like-for-like swaps are allowed 10' high and 12" wide from the metal, where previously you could like for like swap anywhere.
 
I feel like since main service panels are typically chest-high and the gas regulator is down near the ankles, it'd be tough for an existing MSP to be within that 36" radius. Hopefully you aren't seeing instances where things would have been like-for-like in the old rules but suddenly you're stuck with a lift and shift now.

The whole thing about PG&E requiring disconnects to turn off generation and backup sources is such BS. I agree with you that seems like an overreach on their part. I can't imagine PG&E having any normal/good explanation for having to be able to turn off someone's backup ESS.
As to your other comment I actually think it has to do with them not being allowed to lock a customer out of their power for an NEM violation. If there was just a single 200A disconnect, then all PV, ESS and home loads get switched together. If you were a bad boy they can lock out your PV but with a single disconenct between the TEG and the MSP, they cant. If they open the one switch it locks your house out of grid power which is a requirement for occupancy.
 
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Re-read the requirements.

If your existing MSP is within 12" of the metal up to 10' high, you cannot do anything to connect to it on the exterior wall including a new like for like swap.

All the 36" radius does for you is allow an unbroken conduit to cross the exclusion area, and stay 36" radius from the gas meter. No new equipment or like-for-like swaps are allowed 10' high and 12" wide from the metal, where previously you could like for like swap anywhere.


Can you just move the gas regulator vent to get 12" of spacing to the main panel? I thought even in the old rules, you couldn't do a like-for-like for existing equipment that was within 12" of the riser anyway.
 
As to your other comment I actually think it has to do with them not being allowed to lock a customer out of their power for an NEM violation. If there was just a single 200A disconnect, then all PV, ESS and home loads get switched together. If you were a bad boy they can lock out your PV but with a single disconenct between the TEG and the MSP, they cant. If they open the one switch it locks your house out of grid power which is a requirement for occupancy.


Lol NEM violation.... it sounds like PG&E is already gearing up for my "solution to NEM 3.0" which was to install a non-exporting solar+ESS system and simply not seek PTO or NEM at all to bypass the $8 per kWp AC month.

I'm picturing PG&E purchasing a bunch of drones to fly over homes and see if they have solar panels but aren't paying the $8 per kWp AC per month. And if so, the drone lands on your mandatory PV disconnect and opens it up while spraying this graffiti on your wall.

1661800857931.png
 
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Here is the new version, see Item #2. In many cases of larger jobs, this will require discrete PV and ESS generation panels and disconnect(s)

Yeah, item #2 is bogus. But 240V services up to CL320 are still exempt, so residentially this should only apply to 600A and above services.

Cheers, Wayne
Yes, this was the language that caught my eye as well;

"Applicants with inverter-based generating systems that are supplied by PG&E single phase services up to 240 volts may be exempted from installing a disconnect switch, as determined by PG&E, if the meter panel that is interconnected with the generation source(s) meets all of the following conditions:
• Self-contained (not transformer-rated).
• Accepts form ”S” socket-based (e.g., FM2S) meters (not bolt-on meters).
• Rated for 320 amps (CL 320) or less of “continuous” current.
• Single-phase, 120/240 volt or 120/208 volt."

My bolding...

"Woe unto thee for offending the power that be" or some such thought. Sorry @holeydonut; try not to break anything that might require a permit and PG&E inspection...

All the best,

BG
 
Yeah, item #2 is bogus. But 240V services up to CL320 are still exempt, so residentially this should only apply to 600A and above services.

Cheers, Wayne
Or older Milbank/challenger 400A services with a bolt-on meter, or any other bolt-on or transformer-coupled meters.

100% of our largest jobs need this disconnect and those jobs get the most risk and have the most picky customers. It's easily 20% of our work that requires one.
 
Yes, this was the language that caught my eye as well;

"Applicants with inverter-based generating systems that are supplied by PG&E single phase services up to 240 volts may be exempted from installing a disconnect switch, as determined by PG&E, if the meter panel that is interconnected with the generation source(s) meets all of the following conditions:
• Self-contained (not transformer-rated).
• Accepts form ”S” socket-based (e.g., FM2S) meters (not bolt-on meters).
• Rated for 320 amps (CL 320) or less of “continuous” current.
• Single-phase, 120/240 volt or 120/208 volt."

My bolding...

"Woe unto thee for offending the power that be" or some such thought. Sorry @holeydonut; try not to break anything that might require a permit and PG&E inspection...

All the best,

BG


I legit think that if I tried to add more solar now, PG&E will say my system no longer conforms with the latest 060559 since my ESS disconnects aren't within line of sight of the meter socket. So I will need to add 3 blade disconnects on the outside of my house by the meter socket for the ESS. Then they'll say those new disconnects are too close to the natural gas regulator valve and my house will explode.

One problem I have is my gate is basically next to my NG riser and meter main. While the gate is only 5 feet tall, PG&E says they have to pretend that the gate extends indefinitely upward. So while you or I could stand on one side of the gate and look over it to see all my disconnects, PG&E has said the disconnects are effectively invisible, because if you were actually a midget and not tall enough to see over the gate, then the gate would block your line of sight to the disconnects.

I said "but if you're a midget then you can't reach the disconnects anyway" but I got no response. They just said whatever is on the utility side of the gate has to accomplish the same things as what is on the homeowner side of the gate. I am so effing confused about this... because "irrational gate logic" isn't in the Greenbook.

060559 + the Greenbook is actually worse than NEC 705 (which is why this thread exists) and NEC 706 (which is why I have disconnects everywhere). Because 060559 doesn't let you use OCPDs as disconnects and passing 060559 is 100% up to PG&E's random azz discretion.
 
Can you just move the gas regulator vent to get 12" of spacing to the main panel? I thought even in the old rules, you couldn't do a like-for-like for existing equipment that was within 12" of the riser anyway.
I don't know that you can move any gas equipment easily, I haven't gone down that road.

Under the old rules, like-for-like swaps were allowed wherever they initially occurred. When they were right over the gas meter, it made it impossible to connect to them, unless in a doghouse or if you went through the walls or on the interior wall surface.

Now your like for like swap service panel right above the gas meter will need to be moved a bit until it is 12" from the vertical line drawn by the metal of the gas meter, and 36" radius sphere from the gas vent. This may trigger a new trench for the service lateral or to underground the conductors that were once overhead. Service conductors arent allowed to be spliced that I know of, so they cannot be extended.

Portola Valley, Woodside and Los Altos Hills all have requirements to underground new service conductors whenever the service moves.
 
100% of our largest jobs need this disconnect and those jobs get the most risk and have the most picky customers. It's easily 20% of our work that requires one.
OK, sure, but you are targeting the very high end of the market, so you end up dealing with a lot of the unusual cases like that. I expect 90%+ of PWs installs (counting by installs, not by number of PWs) will be on a CL320 or smaller plug-in meter. Although I don't actually have any data to support that claim.

I assume PG&E doesn't let you have two different residential services and meters for one house?

Cheers, Wayne
 
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OK, sure, but you are targeting the very high end of the market, so you end up dealing with a lot of the unusual cases like that. I expect 90%+ of PWs installs (counting by installs, not by number of PWs) will be on a CL320 or smaller plug-in meter. Although I don't actually have any data to support that claim.

I assume PG&E doesn't let you have two different residential services and meters for one house?

Cheers, Wayne
You are totally correct that most Powerwall installations don't need it.

No PGE doesn't want 2 electric services and meters at one house, though exceptions do exist for things like a well pump or separate structure.
 
Lol NEM violation.... it sounds like PG&E is already gearing up for my "solution to NEM 3.0" which was to install a non-exporting solar+ESS system and simply not seek PTO or NEM at all to bypass the $8 per kWp AC month.

I'm picturing PG&E purchasing a bunch of drones to fly over homes and see if they have solar panels but aren't paying the $8 per kWp AC per month. And if so, the drone lands on your mandatory PV disconnect and opens it up while spraying this graffiti on your wall.

View attachment 846695
It’s not that crazy a thought!

 
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