Let's discuss Dual Motor range

[ℬête Noire]

If it is unmeasurable in the real world

You're still is Stage Coming To Grips With Reality, then. No extra data required. "Unmeasurable" as a potential is highly unrealistic at this point. We've got enough information for that. Plausible range at this point is 3%-10%.

 

[xav-]

When I look at the range of my RWD car on 19 inch wheels... I suspect that AWD + performance tires and or bigger wheels is not going to look good at all.. expect something closer to 200 miles than 300 miles IMO

My experience:
- 19 inch wheels -> 10 percent range loss reported is real
- I can’t imagine what the loss is on those fancy 20 inch wheels with performance summer season tires (other users will weigh in maybe)

I get like 260 watts per mile. I would get 285 watts per mile with an AWD. My range is horrible when I get these kind of numbers.

So think twice if you about getting AWD if you want performance tires or bigger wheels.

 

[EVnut]

You're still is Stage Coming To Grips With Reality, then. No extra data required. "Unmeasurable" as a potential is highly unrealistic at this point. We've got enough information for that. Plausible range at this point is 3%-10%.

So about like letting it sit in the garage for two days....

So remind me, what was the real-world reduction of the Model S D? (fully understanding that the motor situation was different).

 

[EVnut]

So think twice if you about getting AWD if you want performance tires or bigger wheels.

Rest assured that I have no intent of adding less efficient wheels and tires. For me personally, is all down to debating the Y/N of AWD. It it is tough for me to make long-term, expensive decisions based on conjecture and the current state of plausibility.

As far as we know, nobody has yet taken delivery of a production AWD (performance or not) car, correct? (The performance version unfortunately won't tell me anything useful, as that configuration introduces several more variables.)

 

[rluciano]

So about like letting it sit in the garage for two days....

So remind me, what was the real-world reduction of the Model S D? (fully understanding that the motor situation was different).

My experience going from a Model S P85+ to a Model S 90D was a 3-5% improvement in wh/mi used.

 

[ℬête Noire]

So about like letting it sit in the garage for two days....

So remind me, what was the real-world reduction of the Model S D? (fully understanding that the motor situation was different).

Remind me how that's particularly relevant here? Fully understanding that the "motor situation" was extremely different, and digging into the details of that makes it clear why it didn't work out the same here.

As far as we know, nobody has yet taken delivery of a production AWD (performance or not) car, correct?

I thought someone has?

 

[EVnut]

Remind me how that's particularly relevant here? Fully understanding that the "motor situation" was extremely different.

Because I'm not only holding a conversation with you about the unknowns of the Model 3 system. There was a bit of a sidebar a few posts back questioning the mere *possibility* that AWD can be more efficient than RWD. Plus I just wanted to recall what started the expectations about AWD increased efficiency with Tesla.

 

[EVnut]

My experience going from a Model S P85+ to a Model S 90D was a 3-5% improvement in wh/mi used.

Thank you for this data point.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Because I'm not only holding a conversation with you about the unknowns of the Model 3 system. There was a bit of a sidebar a few posts back questioning the mere *possibility* that AWD can be more efficient than RWD. Plus I just wanted to recall what started the expectations about AWD increased efficiency with Tesla.

"Expectations about AWD increased efficiency" until back in May when the motor arrangement was announced and it was realized that should all be tossed in the bin because this setup is so much different. The Model S difference should have had nil influence on your expectations since then, so really isn't relevant at all. Which is to say expectations of increased range shouldn't have been a factor in anyone's ordering decision. If it was then they were still struggling with getting a Grip on Reality Of What Was Known.

Get over it already. If you care about 10 miles nominal full range or more, and range is priority over handling feel and acceleration, don't get the AWD. Change your order to RWD and enjoy the crap out of that great choice. It's really that simple.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Get over it already. If you care about 10 miles nominal full range or more, and range is priority over handling feel and acceleration, don't get the AWD. Change your order to RWD and enjoy the crap out of that great choice. It's really that simple.

RWD usually has better handling "feel" than AWD.

 

[jsmay311]

Late last night I went ahead and switched my order from AWD to RWD. Within 10 hours and I had gotten an email from a Tesla ISA with the subject line "Your Tesla Model 3 is almost ready" which said that "your Model 3 is reaching it’s final production stages". (I was a 3/31/16 line waiter.) It feels surprisingly anti-climactic given my conflicted feelings over giving up the benefits of AWD.

But in the end, the left half of my brain won out against the right half in the battle of RWD efficiency/range vs AWD acceleration/handling/winter traction. I just wish I had the benefit of a better understanding of the engineering and testing details that explain the magnitude of the difference between 2018 RWD and AWD EPA ratings before pulling the trigger. But I didn't expect to learn those details anytime soon.

 

[RDoc]

RWD usually has better handling "feel" than AWD.

That hasn't been my experience with AWD vs RWD Model S. The AWD is much more balanced in a high speed curve, e.g. entrance ramp IMHO. I'm pretty sure they do some torque vectoring adjustments to improve handling.

 

[Effopec]

Late last night I went ahead and switched my order from AWD to RWD. Within 10 hours and I had gotten an email from a Tesla ISA with the subject line "Your Tesla Model 3 is almost ready" which said that "your Model 3 is reaching it’s final production stages". (I was a 3/31/16 line waiter.) It feels surprisingly anti-climactic given my conflicted feelings over giving up the benefits of AWD.

But in the end, the left half of my brain won out against the right half in the battle of RWD efficiency/range vs AWD acceleration/handling/winter traction. I just wish I had the benefit of a better understanding of the engineering and testing details that explain the magnitude of the difference between 2018 RWD and AWD EPA ratings before pulling the trigger. But I didn't expect to learn those details anytime soon.

Does anyone know if it has been confirmed that you lose the free internet for life if you change your configuration post 6/30? I've got AWD ordered with a sept-nov delivery, but have been tempted to change to RWD (don't need AWD much here in Texas). It would be nice to lower the price and gain some range, but losing the free internet may keep the scale on the AWD.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Does anyone know if it has been confirmed that you lose the free internet for life if you change your configuration post 6/30? I've got AWD ordered with a sept-nov delivery, but have been tempted to change to RWD (don't need AWD much here in Texas). It would be nice to lower the price and gain some range, but losing the free internet may keep the scale on the AWD.

I am in this boat, and I take delivery 8/10. I was told that because I put my $2500 down on May 23rd, I made the cutoff. That was from an ISA though, so I would continue to push the issue until we get a clear answer.

 

[patrick40363]

Late last night I went ahead and switched my order from AWD to RWD. Within 10 hours and I had gotten an email from a Tesla ISA with the subject line "Your Tesla Model 3 is almost ready" which said that "your Model 3 is reaching it’s final production stages". (I was a 3/31/16 line waiter.) It feels surprisingly anti-climactic given my conflicted feelings over giving up the benefits of AWD.

But in the end, the left half of my brain won out against the right half in the battle of RWD efficiency/range vs AWD acceleration/handling/winter traction. I just wish I had the benefit of a better understanding of the engineering and testing details that explain the magnitude of the difference between 2018 RWD and AWD EPA ratings before pulling the trigger. But I didn't expect to learn those details anytime soon.

You should have stuck with the AWD, I grew up in Chicago and would not have ordered a RWD if AWD was available. I now live on the coast of northern Ca and it never freezes or snows. I switched from RWD to AWD on my model s in 2015. Ordered my wife a model 3 with AWD 2 weeks ago.

 

[ℬête Noire]

RWD usually has better handling "feel" than AWD.

That's kinda a personal taste thing and what you're looking for. How you want it to feel. There's a lot of fun to be had with the RWD take on things, to be sure.

 

[EVnut]

I just wish I had the benefit of a better understanding of the engineering and testing details that explain the magnitude of the difference between 2018 RWD and AWD EPA ratings before pulling the trigger. But I didn't expect to learn those details anytime soon.

I am right there with you, brother!

 

[Jedi2155]

The actual EPA score is what they achieve during the dyno test but that's not the score EPA certifies.

I have a question Troy, why does your chart show the LR and LR AWD dyno numbers to be awfully close. Is this a typo?


The EPA documents you provided indicated 495.1 miles in the UDDS cycle while the sheet you listed would provide the following if you adjusting for the multipliers to obtain the original City dyno range :
LR: 462.9
LR+AWD : 455.3

The AWD would match the previously reported EPA numbers but not the LR model.

Those EPA documents are also very interesting and I'd be interested to see the results from the AWD test. Another possible option is to increase the usable capacity of the pack in the AWD variant. Apparently the charge efficiency of the Model 3 is about 87.5% (78.27/89.4).

 

[EVnut]

RWD usually has better handling "feel" than AWD.

As a long-time fan of steering with the "go" pedal, I know exactly where you're coming from!

However... this reminds me a bit of the contention that ICE vehicles have a better performance "sound" than EVs.

I'd rather have better actual performance than the sound of better performance. The same way I'd rather have better actual handling than the "feel" of better handling.

After driving a RWD model S and an AWD model S, I've been converted to a fan of AWD. Note that the Model S AWD was the first AWD car I've driven (at least one that has enough power to matter).

Viva the difference!

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'd rather have better actual performance than the sound of better performance. The same way I'd rather have better actual handling than the "feel" of better handling.

For the street I like the off the line traction of AWD but for actual handling performance I think RWD has the edge. Look at the list of Laguna Seca lap times. I know the top car is AWD but that's a car so powerful it would probably be traction limited at 100mph if it were RWD.