Lets work out the Tesla Semi-Truck Technical Specs

[Farmertom]

This is concern of mine also, but I think it is manageable in terms of snow/ slush. If the truck side opens first, that creates a clean space, so they are no drips when the charge side opens. Bigger issue I see I flooding and such. Having the charge system at/near/ below ground level makes a sump super critical.

Good, well thought out design and site selection would practically eliminate this issue. Good drainage, heated pads and weather resistant covers would be required. Remember existing fuel stations still need to have snow cleared to function as well, virtually all fuel storage is below grade level and that works just fine.

I've driven in conditions the truck accumulated over a ton of snow underneath and in front of the steering axle was still clear. The contact points on the truck could remain open to the environment as long as they are not energized when not being used.

 

[Farmertom]

Yes, but more importantly they will have enough capacity for the customer can decide where and when to charge. It's a form of demand response.

In the real world the trucks on the stage will have a maximum range of around 400 miles so I guess if it was doing a run of a hundred miles it could deliver electricity as well but what would be the incentive of the owners to do that?

One of the ways Musk probably gets to 7 cents is the truck charging directly off of 3 cent solar when the sun is shining. To often charge off of optimal conditions requires flexibility in timing as well as optimization software. Although each market area will require a different solution to 7 cents.

It's going to be interesting as sunshine is a finicky thing, I think three cent solar is wildly optimistic, the storage capacity and infrastructure required to tie this all together is going to cost a fortune unless the idea is to shut down industry on cloudy days.

 

[WannabeOwner]

what would be the incentive of the owners to do that

Maybe: in the small print in the contract with Tesla that gets you $0.07 Megacharging price ...

i.e. Tesla sell the electricity back to the grid, and, sadly, not you!

That would also be the means by which Tesla give you the million-mile-warranty

 

[Cloxxki]

In the real world the trucks on the stage will have a maximum range of around 400 miles so I guess if it was doing a run of a hundred miles it could deliver electricity as well but what would be the incentive of the owners to do that?

You know more than I do. I heard Elon mention 500 miles in his so-called worst case. Maximum loading capacity, 60mph which in most of he world it will never get close to. Why would real would be 20% less than worst case? Lots and lost of acceleration to high speeds? Being so heavy, if the driver can look ahead, there will also be 4 x 165kW of regen for as long as the driver takes to slow back down...

 

[zecar]

In the real world the trucks on the stage will have a maximum range of around 400 miles so I guess if it was doing a run of a hundred miles it could deliver electricity as well but what would be the incentive of the owners to do that?..................

It's going to be interesting as sunshine is a finicky thing, I think three cent solar is wildly optimistic, the storage capacity and infrastructure required to tie this all together is going to cost a fortune unless the idea is to shut down industry on cloudy days.

The customers incentive is to get 7 cent fuel. To get to that price probably means complete system optimization. 7 cents probably also means that the customer must come up with the land/space for solar in urban areas.

Businesses want cheap fuel and electricity. They don't want to figure out how to best sell excess solar and battery capacity.

Tesla can bid into the California ISO with only one megawatt of generation. All the barriers that existed for solarcity to be consolidator and provider of grid services is removed with the semi.

 

[jkn]

Good, well thought out design and site selection would practically eliminate this issue. Good drainage, heated pads and weather resistant covers would be required. Remember existing fuel stations still need to have snow cleared to function as well, virtually all fuel storage is below grade level and that works just fine.

Yes, I agree. How many version Californians need before it works?

I've driven in conditions the truck accumulated over a ton of snow underneath and in front of the steering axle was still clear. The contact points on the truck could remain open to the environment as long as they are not energized when not being used.

I wonder if this changes when engine heat is removed.

 

[Farmertom]

You know more than I do. I heard Elon mention 500 miles in his so-called worst case. Maximum loading capacity, 60mph which in most of he world it will never get close to. Why would real would be 20% less than worst case? Lots and lost of acceleration to high speeds? Being so heavy, if the driver can look ahead, there will also be 4 x 165kW of regen for as long as the driver takes to slow back down...

You're saying Tesla cars have actual range 20% higher than advertized? Why would Elon advertize his truck as 500 mile range if it'll get 600? Tesla would be the first company ever to advertise honest range.

As a prudent operator I am looking for fuel/recharge at a quarter tank. I've run out of fuel a couple times and it's an avoidable inconvenience/expense I'd rather not have to deal with.

 

[Farmertom]

The customers incentive is to get 7 cent fuel. To get to that price probably means complete system optimization. 7 cents probably also means that the customer must come up with the land/space for solar in urban areas.

Businesses want cheap fuel and electricity. They don't want to figure out how to best sell excess solar and battery capacity.

Tesla can bid into the California ISO with only one megawatt of generation. All the barriers that existed for solarcity to be consolidator and provider of grid services is removed with the semi.

I don't understand what you're saying here, do you have a link to this program? It sounds like Tesla's truck customers are going to have to invest in way more than just the trucks? Why pay anything for electricity if you're producing it yourself anyway? Requiring trucks to plug in at every stop is going to be a logistical and infrastructural nightmare.

 

[Cloxxki]

You're saying Tesla cars have actual range 20% higher than advertized? Why would Elon advertize his truck as 500 mile range if it'll get 600? Tesla would be the first company ever to advertise honest range.

As a prudent operator I am looking for fuel/recharge at a quarter tank. I've run out of fuel a couple times and it's an avoidable inconvenience/expense I'd rather not have to deal with.

I believe I quoted you correctly. Please read back.

Your use of "real-world" (range until 1/4 still available) seems unique to you, and did require the above explanation. In automotive, we look at what the vehicle can do, not what the driver is comfortable with. Tesla for the emi and Roadster came with a new concept, "worst case" range. To prevent eventualities such as cold, wind, etc to trip drivers up. Using a 60mph fully loaded cruise as a guidance for Semis. Near 75 mph for the New Roadster, it seems.

And yes, if you drive according to road laws present in most parts of the world, in conditions present around most of the world, the 500 mile semi will do a good bit more. Rarely being fully loaded, cruising around 52mph on average. Parts of a drive with various wind directions.

 

[Farmertom]

I believe I quoted you correctly. Please read back.

Your use of "real-world" (range until 1/4 still available) seems unique to you, and did require the above explanation. In automotive, we look at what the vehicle can do, not what the driver is comfortable with. Tesla for the emi and Roadster came with a new concept, "worst case" range. To prevent eventualities such as cold, wind, etc to trip drivers up. Using a 60mph fully loaded cruise as a guidance for Semis. Near 75 mph for the New Roadster, it seems.

And yes, if you drive according to road laws present in most parts of the world, in conditions present around most of the world, the 500 mile semi will do a good bit more. Rarely being fully loaded, cruising around 52mph on average. Parts of a drive with various wind directions.

I guess this is why you see lineups of vehicles at fuel stations in times of crisis, people don't plan ahead.

It will be interesting considering these trucks have never been on the road. If these claims are true Elon should be crowned as the most honest salesman ever.

 

[Cloxxki]

I guess this is why you see lineups of vehicles at fuel stations in times of crisis, people don't plan ahead.

It will be interesting considering these trucks have never been on the road. If these claims are true Elon should be crowned as the most honest salesman ever.

He's been a terrible salesman for a long time. Promising 85 kWh, delivering 81 kWh. Then 86 kWh for 90 kWh.
At least, Tesla doesn't seem to use the EU range figures which basically require hypermiling efforts from the driver. And it's gotten less bad since. With the 100 kWh cars, the Model 3 with hidden range, and now Semi and Roadster getting "worst case" in stead of typical/EPA range.

I can imagine that the Semi, with average load, on typical speeds, no elevation, can achieve a "typical" consumpion that is very different from what a driver might experience in reality. Pushing max speeds, fully loaded, into head wind, in hard rain, mostly uphill. To go from a very rosey "typical" to "worst case" should help make calculations work out most of the time.
There will not be Megachargers at every single stop that accomodattes a semi. There is also NO TIME. As presented, Tesla sees their first customers doing 2x200 mile out and back routes, returning to base to charge back up in half an hour. No trans continental drives as yet.

Semi buyers are different from hatchback buyers. They know exactly where their customers need them. They are not going to park the Tesla outside their distri center just looking pretty. They need it to be on the road, ideally 24/7/365. And the routes it makes betweeen base stops, is where it needs charge. Over 400 miles, indeed it gets "interesting" with the 500 mile model, but if you know the conditions, and the loads you'll be ccarrying, you can still mix Teslas into your fleet up to 500 miles. Let alone, if there are compatible chargers anywhere on route to routinely charge back up shortly. Big fleet managers may have influence (purchase power) to place corporate (private) megachargers exactly where they please. Charging at 800 mph, there is hardly any hold-up, ever. Trucks stop, it's what they do.

 

[Farmertom]

He's been a terrible salesman for a long time. Promising 85 kWh, delivering 81 kWh. Then 86 kWh for 90 kWh.
It's gotten less bad since
At least, Tesla doesn't seem to use the EU range figures which bsically require hypermiling efforts from the driver.

I can imagine that the Semi, with average load, on typical speeds, no elevation, can achieve a "typical" consumpion that is very different from what a driver might experience in reality. Pushing max speeds, fully loaded, into head wind, in hard rain, mostly uphill. To go from a very rosey "typical" to "worst case" should help make calculations work out most of the time.
There will not be Megachargers at every single stop that accomodattes a semi. There is also NO TIME. As presented, Tesla sees their first customers doing 2x200 mile out and back routes, returning to base to charge back up in half an hour. No trans continental drives as yet.

Semi buyers are different from hatchback buyers. They know exactly where their customers need them. They are not going to park the Tesla outside their distri center just looking pretty. They need it to be on the road, ideally 24/7/365. And the routes it makes betweeen base stops, is where it needs charge. Over 400 miles, indeed it gets "interesting" with the 500 mile model, but if you know the conditions, and the loads you'll be ccarrying, you can still mix Teslas into your fleet up to 500 miles. Let alone, if there are compatible chargers anywhere on route to routinely charge back up shortly. Big fleet managers may have influence (purchase power) to place corporate (private) megachargers exactly where they please. Charging at 800 mph, there is hardly any hold-up, ever. Trucks stop, it's what they do.

That's a good, honest assessment Cloxxki, I actually don't see issues with long haul after the infrastructure is setup on dedicated routes either. (New York/LA and such.). You recharge when you stop to eat and sleep so at least twice a day. It's those that travel all over the continent that need to figure it out and where thousand mile plus range really shines. I suppose that is well into the future yet though.

Is California still experiencing brownouts frequently? How will adding a whole bunch of electric vehicles affect this?

 

[Cloxxki]

Is California still experiencing brownouts frequently? How will adding a whole bunch of electric vehicles affect this?

Seems that Tesla is seeing only megacharging as a viable power source to the Semis. Anything else is too slow to be practical/ecconomical. Perhaps old school (low cost) superchargers suffices for vehicles that are stationary at home base for most of the night. A fleet manager could get a whole bunch installed and let a single employee arrange for all vehicles to get a charge overnight.
But the Megachargers, we seem to have a commitment from Tesla, will get solar power. Whether they will add this solar capacity themselves or purchase it in the market, remains to be seen. If built to match megacharger demand, there should not be a net outflow of power from the grid?

 

[mongo]

That's a good, honest assessment Cloxxki, I actually don't see issues with long haul after the infrastructure is setup on dedicated routes either. (New York/LA and such.). You recharge when you stop to eat and sleep so at least twice a day. It's those that travel all over the continent that need to figure it out and where thousand mile plus range really shines. I suppose that is well into the future yet though.

Is California still experiencing brownouts frequently? How will adding a whole bunch of electric vehicles affect this?

Assuming Tesla places Powerpacks at the Megachargers to level the grid looading, short term brownouts should not be a problem. If the utility is unable to provide sufficient power on average to the MC site, then there will be trouble.
Based on current PP numbers, it would take 4 PP (210 kWh AC each) worth of energy and 16 PP (50 kW AC) worth of power to hit the 30 min 400 mile spec for a 800 kWh semi pack.
So 16 fully charged PPs can fill 4 semis (in series) without to external power.

Numbers could be slightly better as I expect the PP will also control the charging, so no need to go DC-AC-DC (each PP module already contains a DC-DC converter).

Extending the DC-DC idea out, 4 PP in parallel would charge each of the 4 semi packs. Pair that with an inverter unit and it can also charge with grid power. Typical build outs look like 5 PP per inverter, so say 20 PP and 4 inverter per MC.
Systems which use more grid would need less PP and inverters.

 

[Cloxxki]

Fleet operators tend to have BIG flat roof, low rise buildings, at least in my neck of the woods. Seems a no-brainer for Tesla to install a solar park on their roof to power the MC and potentially the rest of their operations, go (largely) off-grid, even having an electric fleet.
If I were Tesla, I'd place some megachargers as I deemed useful, based on routes/intersections indicated by customers and governmental data as being key. But, customers want to charge at base, right? Certainly the ones planning to do out and back routes on a single charge.
So, as you're a solar company as well as an automotive one, sell the fleet manager their own solar park to get even better kWh rates than the 7$C Tesla "charges" on-route. Time is money. And an extra charging stop on-route when the driver is not out of hours is NOT a fleet manager's idea of fun. Way for a fleet manager to present themselves to customers and local commity, harvesting solar on their own premises, feeding the clean sleak silent trucks. While saving serious bucks long-term.

 

[Saghost]

Fleet operators tend to have BIG flat roof, low rise buildings, at least in my neck of the woods. Seems a no-brainer for Tesla to install a solar park on their roof to power the MC and potentially the rest of their operations, go (largely) off-grid, even having an electric fleet.
If I were Tesla, I'd place some megachargers as I deemed useful, based on routes/intersections indicated by customers and governmental data as being key. But, customers want to charge at base, right? Certainly the ones planning to do out and back routes on a single charge.
So, as you're a solar company as well as an automotive one, sell the fleet manager their own solar park to get even better kWh rates than the 7$C Tesla "charges" on-route. Time is money. And an extra charging stop on-route when the driver is not out of hours is NOT a fleet manager's idea of fun. Way for a fleet manager to present themselves to customers and local commity, harvesting solar on their own premises, feeding the clean sleak silent trucks. While saving serious bucks long-term.

I think you're right that a lot of EV Semis will have a similar paradigm to other EVs - work one or two shifts, charge at base during the off shift. If the MWh speculation for battery size is close to correct, you need something north of 100 kW to charge during 8 hours - more or less the output of a Supercharger cabinet.

Given how little range any conventional AC plug will deliver to the semi, I'm thinking Tesla may not include any AC charging ability - or if they do, only a (relative) trickle to handle cabin loads on overnight trips or the like - something similar to what most EVs have now (<10 kW). Instead, they'd sell a hard wired destination charger for the Semi that's pretty much a Supercharger cabinet but set up with the 8 pin (11 pin, including ground and pilot and proximity?) Megacharger plug set up to wire to 480V 3 Phase (or to a PowerPack or two if they're doing solar on the big roof that they generally have.)

 

[zecar]

I don't understand what you're saying here, do you have a link to this program? It sounds like Tesla's truck customers are going to have to invest in way more than just the trucks? Why pay anything for electricity if you're producing it yourself anyway? Requiring trucks to plug in at every stop is going to be a logistical and infrastructural nightmare.

Customers would have the option of providing power. They are going to have to buy Tesla chargers, and those chargers have power requirement specs. But customer generated power won't have a seven cent guarantee.

Optimization simply requires following a schedule that includes charging. Employees currently have a work schedule that usually includes a dock time. Add to that a charging time for semis that have not charged over night.

I take Musk literally but not over optimistically. This will be a twenty year transition. They can't just guarantee seven cents and offer semis at probably zero margin in 2020. They need to find solutions that work for both Tesla and the customer.

 

[MP3Mike]

It will be interesting considering these trucks have never been on the road.

It has been said that Tesla has had prototypes on the road for almost a year.

 

[Cloxxki]

A proper solar roof park may undercut the 7$C? Zero waiting time at base due to full megachargerr control, and the system may well survive Tesla itself. Would be a bummer to rely on road side charger when Tesla truly disappears (not that other decent brands ever do lose servicing).

 

[UrsS]

About that 7c electricity:
What am I missing in this conversation? According to Electricity Monthly Update wholesale electricity around her in California is between 1c and 2.5c - that is what the electric companies such as PG&E and Southern California Edison are paying on average.
So, all Tesla has to do is establish an electric corporation and their cost will be the same. So tripling the cost to sell it at 7c does not seem to be such a bad deal to me.
PG&E paid me $ 0.0271 per kwh (2.71c) for what my solar panels produced above my use for the last year.